0:14 – Intro
Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.

Lizzy 0:41 – Introducing the guests
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Scene change. I'm Lizzy Muhammad Park, the Vice President of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division and the host of the show. We have the president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division with us, Katelyn McIntyre, as well as one of our board members, Precious Perez.

Katelyn
Yeah. Hi. It's great to be here with you, Lizzy and everyone listening. Welcome. I am Katelyn McIntyre, the president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division, and I love everything performing, I have a Master of Music in vocal performance, and which means that I studied opera, and art song and oratorio and lots of classical music. I also sing jazz and musical theater and other styles, and I play some piano and guitar, I also teach all of those things online currently, which is a whole lot of fun. I love getting to pass on what I've learned to others, and then I also do some competitive ballroom dancing. I've done that in the collegiate circuit. That's actually how I met my husband, which is a wonderful story, and dabbled in some acting and motivational speaking, and I just love the performing arts, all of it.

Lizzy
Great. We're so glad to have you. Katelyn, thank you so much for joining us, and Precious.

Precious
Hi, everybody. This is super exciting. My name is Precious. I am currently studying music education and performance at Berklee College of Music. I am a vocalist and a songwriter. I like to use my art as a form of activism as well. So I've done a lot of different performances, and I've got YouTube and music out on all streaming platforms, all those kinds of things, and I'm just really excited for the opportunity to bring performing arts to other people and build community with the performing arts. So being a part of this division is wonderful, and super excited to be on this first episode of our new podcast.

Lizzy 2:45 – What performing means to Katelyn and Precious
So before we jump into anything more formally about the division, I'd like to take a step back and talk about what performing means to each of you, and Precious, as you know, we're going to start with you. It's interesting, Katelyn, that you mentioned how you met your husband in ballroom dancing, and I know that Precious her entire recital this year, which was really great, was all about her journey to her fiance, Shane, who is actually recording this right now for us in audio editing this episode for us. Because you guys, tell me a bit about how performance has been personal for you guys, and it could be if you want to share your personal stories, whether it's like, it could be an early memory, it could be a recent memory, it could be a time that performing has presented itself to you or maybe an opportunity or a relationship that has been able to build for you.

Precious
Sure. So I think performance and really it just started for me when I was really little. Somebody gave me a karaoke machine when I was six years old, and I used to just like be in my room with a microphone and like it was back when the the machine had like cassette tapes that you could put them in and record, and so I would just put on the radio and record myself singing but I was super painfully shy back then, and then I grew into it. As I participated in choral ensembles and things through elementary school and middle school, I started doing more performances and started writing my own songs in middle school and I kind of used it as an outlet and as a channel for anything I was going through. It was what I was really passionate about, and it was something that I could use to I soon discovered. You relate to other people and connect to other people, and I think that means a lot to me like all of my friends and like People that are close to me are all involved in some way in the arts, and it's a way for us to, you know, connect, and continue to build stronger friendships, and it's just great to be able to use the arts to bring people together and to really kind of make an impact.

Lizzy
That's really true, you know, come to think of actually Precious, I forgot about my first karaoke machine, and it's really funny, because I think that that may have influenced my performance a little bit, too, but I just totally forgot about it. Kaitlyn Did you ever have a karaoke machine or anything like that?

Katelyn
I never did get into it that I know, right? I would have been great. I think we did have some tape recorders around the house, but my mom, let us just record ourselves, you know, over and over the same tape multiple times, which would be really fun to go back and listen to now, but yeah, you know, I had two older brothers, I still have two older brothers, and we were all really into music growing up. So I was kind of blessed to have a little bit of that way paved for me, with my older brothers getting into music first, and I saw that and saw how much they enjoyed it, and we all really kind of started to encourage each other I, I do have memories, and I think there's some video footage of me singing songs that maybe three or four years old and going up to my mom and saying, Can I sing you a song? Okay, you know, ABCDEFG finished that one, can I send you another one? Okay, hot cross buns, hot cross buns, can I show you another one going on. Um, and I, I was really eager to share my music from an early age, but I after that my family and I actually started singing together, which was a wonderful way to, I think, encourage each other, and kind of start that collaboration aspect of performing arts that I love so much. I love doing solo work, but whenever I'm a part of a choir or singing with orchestra, or in a, you know, I've done clogging in a dance group where you're not the only person on stage, you can accomplish so much more than when you're just the only one there. I love that aspect of performing arts. So that was a great starter, and then one other thing I love as well is the fact that all performing arts but musics specifically, in my field really transcends language barriers, transcends cultural barriers, it's, it's kind of an international language that can reach anyone and everyone and singing opera has taught me that as well. Because so much of it is about telling a story, in whatever language you're singing in German, Italian, French, Spanish, you know, you're, you're, you're singing in these different languages, the audience doesn't necessarily understand that, but you're still conveying a story telling a story about love, or loss or joy or sorrow, and then kind of taking that into a more practical or real life scenario. I had the privilege after my senior year of college to go on a trip to Romania, to work with orphans there, and you know, I didn't speak any Romanian yet, and they didn't speak much English, but we were able to use music as a way to connect and to teach them, you know, tell them story is to teach them life skills, various ways that we're able to use music to bring joy and hope and give them encouragement in their daily lives, and so I just love being able to see that that music could really just reach out to a totally different people group than I was from and, you know, still create that connection and that community and that bond. So music is really powerful as, as are all the performing arts.

Lizzy 8:49 – What brought everyone to the NFB PAD
You're exactly right. When you say that, you know, the performing arts, connects people across language. I know for my senior solo, which, at Bryn Mawr and the acapella group that I was in each senior is allowed to pick a song that they want to sing, it could be something special to you, it could be something that you know, you just sound good singing or whatever the case may be, you don't always get to have a solo when you're in an acapella group, but your senior year, that's your time to shine. I ended up choosing a song that I would always dance to and sing when I was in Spain, and it's a really popular reggaeton song by Marc Anthony, (Spanish) and I just loved that song, and what happened like the reason why I ended up singing that one was because the housekeeper at the school that I was attending. She said, You know what she's like, I love how you're here and you're just taking advantage of everything, and you don't care like you're not letting anything stop you whether because honestly when I got to Spain my Spanish was not good was really kind of like but I just went for it anyway, I wasn't really worried about that, and, and I always tell people I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry, if you don't understand me, my Spanish isn't good, but I need to practice. So I'm going to keep talking to you in Spanish. You know what I mean? Like, even if I'm struggling, even if you're struggling, we're gonna get through this because I'm gonna pretend like I don't speak English, and that's honestly what I did, and a lot of situations, and good attitude is that she said that, um, every time she was here, that's what she said, Lizzy, whenever I hear the song, I think of you, and she said, Do you know the song? She would like, you know, sing it to me? Will you sing it together? And I ended up memorizing all the words, and it was, Oh, she loved music. So I was memorizing all the words, and when I got back from my, my senior solo, and they said, you know, What song do you want to do? I was like, alright, we're doing this song, and they were like, We don't speak Spanish, and I was like, well, we're gonna figure it out. Like, you know, you know, even though you guys don't necessarily know what you're saying, I was like, sing it sing. It was feeling, you know, these, here's what the words mean, you know, no matter what the day brings, I'm going to, you know, have fun, I'm going to enjoy life, and that's what the song is about. So we're gonna sing it, and we're all gonna have fun doing it, and they're like, all right, you know, so it's just, and the audience loved it, you know, but I just think it's really powerful. When you say it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really matter what you're performing art is, you can always connect with other people through that, and speaking of connection, we are all a part of the Performing Arts Division, Katelyn's president, as I said, Precious is a board member, and I'm the Vice President. So I'd like for us to discuss, you know, what drew you into the performing arts division, and, you know, connecting with blind people with the Federation through the performing arts? Just you know, and everything along those lines.

Katelyn
Yeah, you know, for me, so I got involved with the National Federation of the Blind. About six years ago, in 2014, I grown up with a really positive blindness philosophy, my parents read future reflections, and so I, which is a magazine, put out by the National Organization of Parents of Blind Children, and so I was raised, really knowing that blindness didn't need to be a limitation for me, it didn't need to be my defining characteristic. You know, it's a characteristic a part of my life, but not the only characteristic, and so, I was honored to receive a national scholarship in 2014, and went to my first NFB convention, and was just totally blown away with the 3000 blind people tapping canes and filling the holes of the hotel and Convention Center was so excited to just meet so many like minded people who knew that they could reach for their goals and reach for their dreams, no matter what. You know, what they were, whether it was becoming a lawyer, or a music teacher, or an economist, or a stay at home mom, whatever it was, blindness did not have to hold us back from reaching our dream. So I just love that, and, you know, I saw the event on the calendar for the Performing Arts Division, and I just thought, hey, great, I'm gonna go meet some other blind performers, and I went, and I got pulled in, I was immediately hooked. Elections were being held, I thought, why not? This sounds like an amazing opportunity to start giving back to this amazing organization that's already reached out to me and given me a boost with the scholarship. So I, Lizzy and I actually got elected together onto this board. Lizzy is also a scholarship finalist from 2014, and I just have never looked back, since it's been an amazing community of like minded people to share ideas about, hey, you know, how, how would you go about making sure that I can memorize my blocking comfortably for this scene? Or have you ever tried learning guitar? You know, what, it's a great community to ask questions of other blind people who've been there who have created alternative techniques for different performing arts, but you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time. So I love that about our community, and just really, it's been empowering for me, I, you know, thought I was already a pretty independent and self sufficient person, and maybe by some standards, I was, but there's always more to learn, and even just in the last years of being a part of this community, I've learned more I've grown more in who I am as a performer, as a blind person, being confident to not let blindness hold me back from achieving my goals, whether it's on stage or screen or, you know, just in daily life of being a confident blind performer, and so I just, I love the community we have I love that we have dancers and comedians and musicians and actors and people doing audio engineering, and just, you know, it's we want to be a really welcoming place, and I think we've been able to achieve that. So We'd love to have you join us if you if you haven't done so already.

Lizzy
Yeah, so true, we do have a lot of different styles performance in our division. So there is literally something here for everyone, and just when you think that there's no one else who does your performing art you never, I mean, at our meeting, there was, there was a Native American flute player who said, Oh, I'm probably the only blind one, and literally, we had two others. So you just never know, you might think that you're going to be the only person who's doing a certain performing art, especially as a blind person, and next thing, you know, voilà there's two you know, two or three other, so how about you Precious?

Precious
So I think like I started noticing the presence of the Performing Arts Division, when I started coming to national conventions in I think it was 2013, or 2014, and I would sign up for the talent shows and perform at the talent shows, and I, for some reason that the schedule, the way the schedule worked, every time I planned mine out I wasn't able to go, there was always a conflicting meeting, but I think there was a point where I was like, I need to go to these meetings and see what they're about. Because, you know, performing arts, this is the division that, you know, this is my field, this is the division that matches what I'm doing, you know, and so it just I went, and I realized, like, I think the first year I didn't, you know, run for anything or anything like that, but then I realized like, well, I can actually do more than I'm doing because like I'm doing stuff with my state division with students and things, but I haven't found something that I feel like I can really make a difference with. Because part of my purpose with my career and with what I do is to break down stereotypes of blind performers and kind of show the world by example, that, hey, we are capable, and we can do this, just as well as anyone else can, it doesn't matter that we can't see. That's not a factor in this, and so when I realized that this was a place where I could go and help make that happen, I was like, Yes, I want to be part of this. We're bringing together blind performers, and we're changing what that means for people, and really showing them that you're not the only one, there's a way to make this happen. There's a way to do this as blind people and you're not alone. So it's a community, and it's also a collective effort to change perceptions, which is really, really cool.

Lizzy 17:35 – Debunking myths

You know what, you're exactly right. When you say that, we're changing, essentially, you know, the performing arts and the way that shapes around blindness, and I'd like to take this time to debunk some myths that are out there. If either of you can think of some off the top of your head, so you can kind of like spit ball here. I mean, there's so many things, and hopefully, we get a lot of excited listeners, and you know, you know, various people who have, honestly, I kind of want people who have misconceptions of blindness and people who don't know what, what we're all about as a federation, because this is a great chance for them to learn. If there any, you know, sort of myths that, you know, people have out there that say like, like, oh, well, a blind person could never do this performing art or blah, blah, blah. You know, I think this is a good outlet and channel for them to hear what those myths are, and they may, there may be miscon- misconceptions and myths that they don't even know that they're holding, you know, that are out there, and I'm gonna know Do you guys know of any have you and I know that Precious. You're at the Berklee School of Music. Just really great school, and I know, Katelyn, you went to Carnegie Mellon, even when it comes to getting into schools, I don't know how easy or hard that was for each of you, and what challenges you will have to face as far as that goes, but Precious will start with you.

Precious
So there were, you know, there's been a few blind students at Berklee. Now, there's more of us than I think there has been in the past. They have a really great program at Berklee for blind students, which is a whole lab where we can learn how to use like ProTools and all these things that everybody uses from a blind professor who knows all about the technology aspects, and that was really what drew me to Berklee because I applied to other schools and everything, and some of which I would have had to build from the ground up as far as accessibility and like they were willing, and that's, that's half the battle. Most times like people have to be willing in order for you to get what you need, but the thought of having to like, win reinvent the wheel was not something I wanted to do, and they had already started that, and they had a program for that. So that's really what made me think like, oh, wow, this is this is really cool. Like I want to go here. They eliminated the sight reading portion for me because the like they don't have a Braille embosser in their student access Office. I mean, they have it in the lab, of course, but a lot of the visual aspects as far as like auditioning for things and whatever, they kind of just don't do that, and I remember like during orientation, everything was print, like the schedules, the pamphlets, everything, and that was not helpful, because obviously, like, I can't read all of those things, and they had a placement test, and they're like, Yeah, I don't know what to do with this. Like, there was just a lot of miscommunications and like disorganization as far as where we should go to get what we needed in these things, and I think the hardest part at Berklee, for me has been, I've had some professors that have said, I don't know how to teach you, I can't do this. I don't know how to help you. Even when I laid it out, there was one professor, I laid it out for him, I said, this is what you need to do. I need, you know, you to tell me a timeline to get these music, PDFs converted, because otherwise I'm going to fall behind. He said, Well, this goes with the flow of the class. So I really can't help you with that, and it was just know, it was It was wild, and so I was like, Are you serious, like, this shouldn't be happening in this day and age, but there are still few professors that will say that and will not teach you because they think that they can't or they're, you know, it's their own biases and their own perceptions that make them think that it's way harder to teach a blind student. Like it's way more work than it is. When really it's just a different way.

Lizzy
Exactly, and I think it's a total cop out to to say that, well, this goes with the flow of the class. So I don't know. I mean,  have it. I mean, do you know if you've ever taught that class before? Because I feel like that's

Precious
Oh yeah

Lizzy and Precious overlaps

Precious
Yeah, it happened twice. That was the second time. The first time was this, this harmony professor that said, I walked in my first week, and he said, Can you tell by my voice that I'm surprised to see you here, and, you know, it was the most uncomfortable class I had to sit through, and then at the end, I was telling him like, hey, we can resolve this, like, I can go figure out how to make this work. It's fine. He's like, I don't feel prepared to teach you and went over everybody's head and talk to the chair to get me switched out of his class. So

Lizzy
Wow

Precious
Yeah

Lizzy
I'm speechless right now.

Precious
Like, it's just so like, you just wouldn't think and like

Lizzy
You know, the thing about the Federation is that we always kind of like figure things out, you know what I mean? Like, we're very big on like, not, like pitying ourselves and things like that, and this is totally not about pity. This is just about injustice, you know, just the fact that you're going to a class as any other student would, and somebody's saying, I can't teach you know what I mean? That's just so just like, the feeling that goes with that. is just, it's horrible. It's terrible. You know, what I mean, I've had, I've been fortunate in the major that I was in, it wasn't a super visual major. So I didn't have any personal professors who have done that, but I do know that accessibility was brought up at different, like, faculty meetings and things like that, and like when those kinds of things were brought up, like there have been professors there who said, Oh, well, I'm glad that she's not taking any of my classes, because, you know, you know what I mean? Like.

Precious

Another thing to me, is like music education. I'm the first music ed student at Berklee, they've never had somebody go through that program. There so essentially, I, the way that it worked was you kind of go and you talk to the chair beforehand, because you're not allowed to declare until second semester. So I went had a meeting with the chair, and the first thing he said was, so you know, this is a lot of work, right? And like, do you have somebody that can help you do X, Y, and Z? And I just went, I'll figure it out, and in my head, I was going, you have no idea who you're talking to? Because I have all the staff in the world, so I will. I do have, like, restrain myself sometimes. There were two meetings had before they said, Okay, this is your interview time and I walk into a room. It's the entire faculty, and I'm getting questions like So how are you going to manage a classroom? How are you going to do this? How are you going to do this? And my answer was, we'll figure it out. Like, I'm not the teacher, I don't know how to do these things yet. I'm coming to y'all because you're supposed to teach me these, and so we'll find a way to adapt that so that I can get the same out of these classes as the other students are, but you're not just you can't say no, you can't turn me away from this, and I had to prove myself, I had to, you know, it's a lot of weight to carry around when you're the first person to do something, because then you feel like you have to do it perfectly. So it's been, you know, an uphill battle with that, and you know, now I'm at a really good place with the department and with the faculty, and everybody's aware now, and it's super rewarding to see, but it was just, it's been, it's been a journey. For sure, there were times where I was just wanting to throw in the towel

Lizzy
But you know, what, what's that quote about? I'm always I do this a lot. I'm always like, what's that quote about? And then I make up a whole new quote, that's totally. I mean, I think that was the quote, certainly not the quote. Okay, but what's that quote about? The best things in life? Being like, are like are not easy to obtain? Or something like that? Katelyn, do you know it? I feel like you would know it

Katelyn
Keep thinking you wanted to say the best things in life are free, but I don't think that's

Shane
The best way to handle this is to also assign who said the quote, so you can just always attribute it to like, one of my cheap ones is I always attributed to George HW Bush, or like MLK, you know

Precious
Quote Forrest Gump

Lizzy
It was, oh, my gosh, no, it's something. It's something like, it's totally just not served with the best things in life, but something like what is it? Anything worth? Nothing?

Katelyn and Lizzy intertwining
Anything worth worth having? Is, is worked for anything worth having you have worth working for? Yeah, thanks. Sure.

Lizzy
See, look, and then I totally screw it up, but that, quote, whatever it is, see, this is what happens because like this, you know, you can't have like a planned conversation. That happens organically. You know, I don't have the exact quote in my head, but someone listening to the show knows exactly what I'm talking about, and to that person, thank you, but, you know, basically, being the first one to do something is so hard, but at the end of the day, it's so rewarding, and it's worth the reward, and when you think about it, it sucks, but like no one remembers, like, the third person to do something or like the 10th person to do something, or whatever, but everyone remembers the first person to do something. So I feel like, as tough as the struggle is, you going through this, you're gonna help so many other people, and not only that, but in some ways go down in history, you know what I mean? So that's also like a cool way to think about it during those rough times, and you're like, I'm so done with this, and if another professor looks at me and says, you can't you know what I mean.

Precious
But yeah, those days. It's like you know what, i'm done, I don't nobody talk to me because I will blow a gasket. Just don't don't even say the wrong word to me right now.

Lizzy
What about for you, Katelyn? Has it been? Have you had those challenges? Or even like, you know, if it wasn't for you have, you know, do you know of other performers? Who have had a rough time? You know

Katelyn
And I talk about the myths too?

Lizzy
Sure sure, yeah please

Katelyn
Because I've got some myths to bust. Yeah. So first of all, blind people can dance. I just have to say it. You know, I've heard from so many people, but oh, I teach. I love teaching blind people how to dance. I do it at the National Federation of the Blind convention. I've done it over various zoom workshops we've had the last few months and so many people just tell me, I have never danced before because I just didn't think that I could or I was nervous about it. Or nobody ever encouraged me to do this, and so first of all you can and that goes for any performing art too. You can do it and you know, it might take a little extra patience on your part, asking some questions, maybe getting some hands on, you know, feeling the teacher's feet position or help having someone make sure that your hand positioning for the ballet arm is is in the correct spots, you know, or whatever, but it's possible so blind people can dance also. We can stand on stage and on set pieces. I have a memory of being in a production in middle school, where I was so excited because we were learning I was just in the ensemble For this production, and we were learning the choreography, and I was so excited to get to do it, and we were going to be on these playground equipment pieces, which was part of our set design, I was really excited, we're going to climb up the stairs and be way up high on the stage, and then we got to Tech Week and the director told me that I was going to be standing off to the side of the large piece of equipment because that was safer for me to be down there on the stage instead of up the stairs, and I was like, what? Why? You know, it's a, it's a playground ladder, how many playground letters have I been up in my life? So we can climb on set pieces. It's not a safety hazard, you know, we can, we can learn choreography, we can dance, I actually went to grad school auditions at a school which shall remain nameless. I entered the audition room, and the person said, in the third person to me, Katelyn can stand and sing from the floor if she likes, rather than ascending the three stairs up to the black box theater stage, which totally baffled me, I'm not really sure how that would have helped things, but we can we can climb stairs, you know, we can, we can stand on stages. So that is I just blows my mind when expectations are so low that people just don't even give blind performers a chance to say, what are you comfortable with? You know, and, and maybe some people are a little less comfortable moving around stage, but let the performer the blind performer be the one to tell you if they have limitations? Or if they have concerns, don't just assume that they can't do something just because they're blind. Or because I'm blind. So those are a couple of things we can sing with conductors, you know, I've been asked a lot of times, how on earth will you solo with an orchestra, if you can't see the conductor? Well, you hear the orchestra, you hear the conductor breathe you, you know, maybe the conductor counts really quietly under his or her breath. Or if you're in the string section, you hear you listen to the person next to you raising their bow to get ready. There are all kinds of techniques that we can perform with conductors in choirs, we can do that we can, you know, learn choreography, it might again, take a little more patience and time, but we can do it, and then the last thing that popped into my head is, you know, it's again, every blind person is different. So we don't want to all be lumped in the same bucket, but we can we can read music, we can do music theory, it's probably going to look different. It might be Braille music, it might be, you know, transcribing it really large print, it might be a variety of methods, but we shouldn't just be you know, it shouldn't be assumed that, oh, you're blind. So you don't have to learn any kind of music theory skills whatsoever. I love music theory, it's been some of my favorite things I've had to take throughout my career, and I unfortunately did not learn Braille music as a young person. So I'm, it's a goal of mine to learn that down the road I wish I had, but I found other ways to learn music theory and to be able to learn my music Well, but other people who read Braille music, do it that way, and, you know, maybe get their music ahead of time so they can study it if they're playing an instrument or all you know, there are ways to make it happen. So don't ever assume that a blind person can't do something just because you don't know the way that it's going to happen. Like you said, Precious too, you know, I may not know the way it's going to work right now, but we'll figure it out, and I can bet you there is going to be an alternative technique we can use. If we just use our heads and think a little bit we're gonna figure

Lizzy
For sure, and you know, what, Katelyn, what you said about? Somewhere, it sounded like, you know, with the one audition, it sounded like that person was trying to let you know that it was okay, if you were uncomfortable, but I think that really was like souring about that experience, even though I wasn't there, but about hearing the experience, I guess for me is that I feel like even if he had good intentions by offering you the option and letting you know that that was okay. Doing it publicly, and doing it in a way that was not directed at you, but was Katelyn can do it if she wants instead of taking you aside and saying, Hey, Katelyn, just so you know, if you're uncomfortable on stage, you're more than welcome to perform this place that would have been so much more respectful. I'm sure it would have been, you know, well received, you know what, because in that case, you're seeing that they have these intentions, they're not just assuming for you that you're going to do this and you know.

Katelyn
So many times you know, you're right because a lot of people you know have good intentions and we don't ever want to say that they don't but just because someone has good intentions doesn't still does not mean that they're doing the right thing right now like there are so many times when people throughout history have been discriminated against in various people groups. Oh, but they had good intentions, but that doesn't make it right now and so yeah. So you know, this person may have still had good intentions, you're absolutely correct, but the fact was, they still had low expectations of me and probably all blind people, and that's what we're trying to change. We want to raise expectations for blind people of, you know, we want to raise the public's expectations of us so that we are encouraged to do these things and not left behind.

Lizzy 35:22 – Good ways for a sighted person to handle blind performers
That's true, because another part of it, too, is not just the intent, but it's also the impact of what that person is doing, and when you think about intent versus impact, it's so you know, you know, them saying that to you, like you said, it shows low expectations, and that, yes, let's, you know, even if, like, even if you had a bit of a fear, who knows, but like, and this is not even for you, but for anyone, yeah, they had a bit of a fear, and they said, You know what, I'm gonna go for it, and then having this person say, Well, you can, you know, you can do this alternative method. Maybe that makes you second guess yourself and say, well, maybe I should, you know, should I not be doing that? You know what I mean? Right? It's not every blind person is to the point of confidence, or it's to the point where they where they can say, you know, I want to do XYZ, I don't know, what do you guys think as as blind performers? You know, you guys both had to go to many auditions, I'm sure for different schools. What's the best way for a sighted person to handle it? Is it to take someone aside is it's not mentioned at all and let the up and let the blind student come to them first? Is it I mean, obviously, everyone's different. So I understand that your response is going to be from your perspective only, but I wonder if our listeners would have that question. You know what I mean? So what do I do? Well, for sure, I think, you know, I think we can all agree that announcing in front of a group that so and so can do blah, blah, blah, if they want to is definitely not the way to go about it. Yeah, I agree on that one, but what's your preferred method

Katelyn
You know, I totally agree to that, it probably is going to be different for every person. So I don't want to speak for every blind person here, I will tell you one really awesome experience I had when I did an opera at Carnegie Mellon University, and we had an amazing director come in from the Met, and she, I think I maybe even introduced myself to her. So ideally, I think it's always great if the blind person can, you know, show a little initiative, and if you feel like you need to talk to the person, just go for it, introduce yourself, but sometimes that takes some courage. So, you know, maybe the person approaches me, but I had this great conversation with her after the first rehearsal, and she just said, you know, how, how can I help? Is there anything that I need to do to make this experience work for you? And I just said, Wow, thank you for asking me that, and not just assuming that you need to do XYZ instead of asking me if that's what I want, and so I think just being really open, and maybe asking a question like that, saying, you know, is there anything I can do to help accommodate you? Or is there anything that you need, you know, or please let me know, if you need anything, instead of sort of assuming that they do or what that is, and just being really honest and open and opening those channels of communication so that you can really have that conversation instead of, you know, making those assumptions and having those low expectations.

Precious
Yeah, I really think that it's like, it can kind of depend on the scenario to like, some, there are some situations where maybe you can't get to that person immediately, or like, have a moment to introduce yourself, but I think there, there's something to be said, for being proactive. Because it's important that you know, when you know what you need, you're able to express that to other people, and that's one of the biggest things in self advocacy is knowing what you need and being able to articulate that. So I feel like, you know, one option is to, you know, plan ahead, if it's something you feel like you need to disclose, then go ahead and talk to the person or if it's something that you want to just, you know, see how this goes and see how it plays out, and if something happens, where you might need an accommodation, or you might need something else, you kind of just subtly kind of express that and say, Hey, like, how would be the best way for me to do this and could do that, and it's all depending on somebody's level of comfortability. You know, like, if somebody isn't comfortable in a setting where like just going up and approaching somebody or doing it in front of everyone, you can always like email ahead and be like, hey, you know, this is the situation I have some trouble with this scenario. There's multiple ways to advocate without having to do that whole face to face communication, right off the bat. So there are different options, and you know, there are some situations that might work better with one or the other, but just know that like, there's multiple ways to say what you need and it doesn't always have to be direct contact like that.

Lizzy 40:00 – Tips for success
Yeah, that's very true, and I think that that's good for our blind listeners as well. Because you know, in there, you talk about self advocacy, which is something like that's, that's a huge part of the life of a successful blind person like you essentially, you essentially have to be a self advocate, we really don't get a choice because anyone else advocating for us is going to be perceived as not that we're shy person, but it will be perceived as we can't, you know what I mean? So we really don't have another choice. So I really love Precious that what you did, there was mentioned ways, even for the shy person to go about it, you know, even for maybe someone who's more introverted, or, you know, it doesn't, isn't as comfortable face to face. So we're wrapping up here is such a great conversation. I do want to ask each of you for preferably something that we haven't discussed yet, but if it is one that we've discussed, you just want to elaborate totally fine, but I do want to ask each of you for a tip that you felt led to the success that you've been able to achieve thus far as a blind performer.

Precious
This is a hard one, because there's like a lot of different aspects to this. I think the one thing I would say is, be yourself, honestly, like, confidence comes from within, and there's no standard of like, oh, this makes you a good blind person. This makes you a good whatever, like advocate, everybody's different. Everybody has the right to be different and do things, different ways than other blind people, there's no universal way to do something, and I think mentioning that is important, because, you know, we can also get stuck in this, oh, well, if I don't do it, like this person, then I'm not considered independent enough for I'm not considered this, that and the other, we, as a community should be building off of each other, and what we all have to offer and the different techniques that we all have. So being comfortable in what you need, and what you use as a blind performer, and what works for you, being able to express that and then just going for it. It's harder to do that, you know, just saying it, but like, I've started doing the thing, where if I see somebody posted in a Facebook group, that's a Berklee Facebook group, like, hey, I need a vocalist, I'll go and message that person say, Hey, I'm a vocalist, I'm interested, and I've gotten a lot of opportunities from that, and, you know, I've gotten a lot of rejections from auditions from other things, whether it was my vocal ability or, or whether it was my blindness, there's no way to know, you know, I I've gotten discriminated against in applying for a Berklee alum organization, like alumni run organization. Like, it's, there's all kinds of things that can happen, but honestly, like, we can't move forward and get the things that we want to get unless we try for them, and some days, that's gonna be harder than others, but, you know, out of 100 nos, if you get one or two yeses, I think that's, there's something to be said for that.

Lizzy
Not only that, but you know, it's also the quality, you know, like, if you get 100 nos that are nice, you know, would have been nice to get a yes, but it wasn't going to set you up for the next step. You know, that was, you know, there's that one yes. Or, you know, those few yeses that are really going to push you in the right direction and push you towards your future. Those are the ones that really matter. You know what I mean? Because you could have gotten a lot of yeses that were not meant for you, you know what I mean, it's not going to help you to achieve any sort of goal that you want it. So that's something that, you know, definitely should be kept in mind, you know.

Precious
It's just maintaining perspective.

Lizzy
Mmhmm It's hard. It's hard when (intertwine voices) rejection, but you know, oh, yeah, it's, like, you know, we have to keep these things in mind. You know, so it's definitely, definitely true. It sounds like part of what you were saying is going just going for it, you know, a little bit of maybe fearlessness, and even if there is fear, and well, I don’t know, I mean

Precious
I have major anxiety. So like, it's, it's a battle. Because, you know, I deal with it on a daily basis. It's always there. It's like ever present and things trigger it, things make it escalate, but in spite of that, I've had to kind of swallow that and say, you know, what, if I don't do this, now, I'm not going to do it, and even if I'm like, I went to this audition once, and it was this, you know, producer guy, and I thought it was gonna be one on one audition, it was a huge room and you basically go up there and like, they switch band out and they switch vocalists out and you're just supposed to improvise, and I was when I tell you I was overwhelmed. I was I was literally almost in tears because I was just not in the mindset for that, and one of my friends was there and he had to leave, and he said, Look Precious, like it's going to be okay. Like, you can do this, it's going to be fine, and somebody saw me and said, Hey, Precious, do you want to go up? And I was like, Well, this is my only chance. Because if I don't get up, now, nobody's gonna see me in this crowded room again, and asked me if I want to go up there. So I went, and, you know, the band played, and other vocalists were like singing riffs and whatever, and I was telling, they're like, Oh, my God, what do I do? What do I do what I do, and I was so terrified, because I was just not prepared, and you know, they tell you in performing arts and anything, like you need to be prepared and like, be on your toes, and this, that, and the other. Not everybody's cut out for that, and so I was just like, Oh, my God, like, how am I supposed to do this? And then something just came to me, and I was like, You know what I have to try, and it did, and it went, Well, I got a callback didn't make it into the thing, but that's beside the point. Like, you have to just, sometimes it's really hard, but sometimes you have to do hard things to get to where you want to go.

Lizzy
You know, it's really true, and also the other thing, too, is I feel like so often, and I've been like grappling with this, like, philosophical question, like people will see us now. They go, like, Oh, you're blind, and you're still like, you know, leave the house. You're so brave. You're so inspirational. You're so amazing, right? And like, the thing is, I feel like words like bravery. amazing and inspiring become like, annoying to us. Because it all it almost becomes an insult, you know? But in reality, when you think about it, I mean, I don't, I didn't like look it up in the dictionary, but like, we all know what the word bravery means. Right? So. So like, like, when you think about it, like to me, like, you know, bravery, is having the courage to overcome a fear, right, but we're not afraid to leave our house. Okay, we are not some people may be, and that's a whole other conversation that I'm, that's not what I'm talking about right now, but we're not as blind people afraid to leave our house or, you know, afraid to leave our houses or afraid to do the day to day things, but when it comes to something, like, you know that that is anxiety inducing, or that is actually scary, of course, we're going to be afraid of that just like anyone else would, and I feel like in those instances, it's okay to say, like, like, you know, in that case that you just mentioned Precious, because of the situation that you just described, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you are brave, because not because you're blind, but because you face the fear, and because you took a chance, and you took a risk, and you weren't really sure you wanted to do it, but at the same time, you didn't want to do it, you know, what I mean, and you're overcoming that shyness, which is what you talked about in the very beginning, about, you know, becoming a performing artist, and that's really fascinating, because a lot of times performers are, you know, a bit shy, and when we take those, those chances, and I say we because I got into performing from being shy as well. So when we take those chances, and we take those risks, and you know, we just had to face those, those fears, and just over, you know, overcome, those are times of bravery, you know, and those are times when hearing a story like that is you know, can inspire another performer be they blind sighted or otherwise, it's, it's so difficult to parse through someone's intention, and impact, you know, when they when they use words like, inspiring, amazing, blah, blah, blah, because I feel like I know, for me, like, I've grown to dislike those words, but then when I think about it, I'm like, Well, you know, at that time, no, I wasn't being brave, but at another time, yeah, that could have been considered bravery. Because I was actually afraid to do that, and I was willing to do it anyway.

Katelyn
Completely agree, and I guess one thing I'll say to encourage performers, maybe two things, is so I I agree with you Precious that so much of our career is be prepared and, you know, always be prepared for the unknown. Well, that's really hard to do, just for anyone, you can't know the unexpected before it happens, but what you can do is, know what accommodations you need to be successful, or to, you know, not let blindness be an obstacle. So maybe that is if you're auditioning for something and acting making sure that you get that script in an accessible format ahead of time. So you are not trying to fight and, you know, read 12 point font, what you can't see at an audition and a cold read, that's not going to work. So making sure you know that ahead of time and then planning ahead for that. So not putting them ahead of, you know, in the sense of somehow magically knowing all the things that are going wrong and being prepared for that that's not practical, but planning ahead in the sense of, you know, okay, these are the things that make me thrive as a performer So I need to make sure that have these things maybe that's a large print script or a Braille script or a PDF, you know, readable PDF or, or Word document scripts that you can read it with JAWS, whatever that is, maybe that is, you know, bringing a friend along to a salsa class so that you have someone to bolster your spirits. If you're discouraged in the class, you know, maybe that is talking to the choir director to tell them, hey, I'm going to just memorize my music. So don't worry, I won't have music in front of me, but I'll be prepared. Whatever those things are, knowing yourself and finding that out about yourself so that you can thrive and do well in performing arts and then adding to that, I would say, ask questions, you know, it's okay to ask questions. I love asking questions. I mean, sometimes I'm nervous, and I don't want to be the one asking the questions, but I think as blind people, it's, it's sometimes we feel like, oh, you know, I asked so many questions already. I don't want to be that person again, but hey, that's often how I learned because maybe the if I'm in a class, maybe the instructor is doing something visual, and even though I asked them to be verbal, they forgot this time. So could you please explain what you just did with your right foot there in this clogging class or whatever? Or, you know, maybe you're in a choir rehearsal, and they say, to go to measure 27? And maybe even just asking your neighbor next to you, what word Are we starting? Okay, great. I've got this, you know, so ask questions. Don't be afraid to do that. Do what you need to do to make yourself comfortable and make yourself thrive, and don't be afraid to ask those questions. I, you know, I love asking questions. Because it makes me feel like I know that I'm on the right track, and don't be afraid to do that.

Precious
somebody else might have the same question.

Katelyn
Exactly, yes, it's so true. It's so true. So whether you're in a class or even in a professional situation, you know, they might say, you know, do you have any questions? And it's okay to have a question. Yep. You know, when we have our call time, are you wanting us here on stage or in the greenroom? You know, that's a perfectly legitimate question. You don't have to know all those answers. So just don't be afraid to ask questions, be yourself. Do what you need to do to be prepared and confident and comfortable.

Lizzy
That's really true. Because you know, what, often times, when you do the things that, you know, are necessary, to, you know, take steps to take steps towards success. Oftentimes, you may even end up growing closer to someone in power. I'm not saying that you're doing it for those reasons, but it could be a benefit, you know, what I mean?

Precious
Connections

Lizzy
Exactly, you know, like, because now they're gonna know you in a way that they don't, you know, they may not know the other, the other, you know, performers.

Katelyn
Absolutely

Lizzy
And also the, you know, when you turn to You know, like you said, Katelyn, I love that trick about, you know, just asking a neighbor, sometimes, you know, what, where does that now that person sort of, like, they could have just been looking at their, their, their music before, but now they're looking up, you're looking at you, they're like, oh, there's a person next to me. You know

Precious
Sometimes I have to ask, like, are we sitting? Are we standing right now? Yeah, like? Yeah, exactly. Like it helps build like you help you get connected to like the people around you to that? Yes, kind of?

Katelyn
Absolutely

Lizzy 53:18 – Closing
most definitely. So, you know, there are certainly positives, to our situations, like we have these very specific situations as blind performers, and we definitely have some perks and some positive sides to it, as well, that other people just wouldn't have, were able to be more social, and I think that that's something that people often times overlook. So that's, you know, that's, that's our show. I love everything that we've been able to discuss here today. I love that we've been keeping everything upbeat, but we've also been honest about the realities of blind performing, and I think that you both have done a great job, and I've loved having you here, and thank you both for joining me. Thank you, Shane, for audio editing. Thank you, Brian, for our music, and thank you to the entire team, who will also be thanked in our credits afterwards. So stay tuned for all that and to hear about our social media here about connecting with us here about everything that we are up to as a division, and I will give you guys a quick minute if you guys have any promo like I know, you do, like a lot of personal stuff. If you have any personal promo stuff that won't be shared. With our division information, feel free to do so now.

Precious
Sure, so if y'all are interested in checking out all of the things, because that's where they are. You can go to my website, which is Precious Perez musica.com (P-R-E-C-I-O-U-S-P-E-R-E-Z-M-U-S-I-C-A dot com), and that's where you'll find all the things if you want to

Katelyn
Yeah, you can find me at Katelyn mac.com So w-w-w dot k-a-t-e-l-y-n-m-a-c dot com and it's free. You can connect with me about music lessons and teaching anywhere in the country right now. So no matter where you are living, we can make it happen, and performing you can watch some my videos on there and connect with me on social media as well, and then I just briefly chat about the division,

Lizzy
because I know that you won't restrain yourself, but it's already gonna be in the it's already in the credits.

Katelyn
But just because we didn't really talk about who we are as a division to just

Lizzy
Okay, go ahead

Katelyn
We'd love to have you join us in the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division. If you're not already a member, we'd love to have you with us. We are a group of people who want to advocate for blind performers, we want to create opportunities and equality for performers of all backgrounds, whether you you're a musician, dancer, audio engineer, actor, comedian, whatever it is, we want to be a resource for you. We want inclusion of blind people in the entertainment industry, and those are some of the things that we really care about. We want to connect people network, create opportunities and resources. So we would love to have you be a part of our movement. You can find us at NFB dash pad.org. We are on Facebook, National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division, Twitter, NFB underscore Pad, and we just love to have you connect, share your ideas, because we need you as much as we may be needed by others. We need everyone to contribute to this movement to make it what it is to make an impact.

Lizzy
Thank you guys so much, and thanks for listening. We'll see you next time here on 'Scene Change'.\

Katelyn
I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Chris Nusbaum, Seyoon Choi, and Precious Perez with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.