0:14 – Intro
Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.

Lizzy 0:41 – Introducing the guests
Hello, everybody, and welcome to 'Scene Change'. I'm Lizzy Muhammad Park, the Vice President of the Performing Arts Division and your host. Today's show is all about ballet ballet today. If you listen to the first show, you know that I love to rhyme and we'll see how long we can keep that up for. We have three blind ballet dancers, and they'll give us everything we want to know about ballet as a blind performing artist. We'll start with our first guest, Jamie Allison, welcome to the show, Jamie.

Jamie
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the performing arts division, putting on this podcast and extending the invitation for me to come on to the show. I'm really excited about being here with everyone tonight. I'm from upstate South Carolina, and I was invited to a sensory friendly production of The Nutcracker back in December of 2016, and that was the beginning of my journey into ballet, and I've always felt like I didn't choose ballet ballet chose me. You know, I sat in the audience and you know, hearing them the music and witnessing the dancers on stage, and then later just getting getting to touch and the costumes and the sets and the props and you know, really get that feel for it, and just, there was just something about it that just spoke to me from right then and there, and I said, I've, I've got to try this. This is something worth trying here, even, even if I'm starting really late, because I was already in the 40s before I got started, and I had not danced early as a child, but I just kind of decided to jump into it and try it and see where it went, and I've either taking classes when I could find them or have taken private lessons from an instructor ever since, and so I've been into ballet now for a little over three years, and then I've also since then added tap dancing clogging to the repertoire as well.

Lizzy
Wow, that's so cool. What about you, Sierra? What state are you from? And what is your ballet experience.

Sierra
I am originally from Louisiana, but we've moved to Georgia for the past two years, and I've been doing ballet for six years. It's all started a year before I decided to take class, it was the same thing as Jamie with Nutcracker, and just hearing the music, and my mother explaining to me what the dancers were doing. I've always loved classical music, and just hearing what was going on on stage with that really inspired me because I feel like classical music is the most beautiful thing, and if you combine it with movement, it just makes it more special.

Shelby
Hello, my name is Shelby Falter, and, um, I am from Southern California been born and raised here for my whole life. I don't think I'll ever leave, but you know, we'll see. Um, I have been dancing on and off for pretty much my entire life in some capacity. I've kind of mixed around with a little bit of every style possible and then kind of weeded it down from there, and I ended up really, really loving ballet, just the structure of it. A lot of people think it's a little boring, but I just I love the movements and the structure and just the basis of it. It's just so beautiful, and the costumes who could who could complain about those. So yeah, I have been dancing on and off, especially now it's kind of difficult with quarantine going on to really be involved in that community. At so I've just been trying to keep up with flexibility and my movements at my house. So I'm kind of taking a little pause, but I have done a couple of shows in my community, and also I was in Color Guard in high school and junior high. So I did a lot of dancing during then, and then when I went into college, I did a lot of dancing and actually also minored in dance. So yeah

Lizzy 5:32 – How to make ballet more enjoyable for blind viewers
Very cool. Well, listen, we're gonna jump into all of this, because it's funny, I have, you know, questions about dancing during quarantine. So, since the Nutcracker has already been brought up a couple of times, I wanted to ask you all, how, you know, we can make ballet more enjoyable for blind viewers, you know, not necessarily for the blind dancer, but for those of us who, you know, we're in the audience. As Sierra mentioned, you're in the audience, and you've got somebody there, describing the show to you, as I did last year, when I went to go see the Nutcracker, and I was thinking this is so cool, you know, like, but it's, I know, Jamie's the user a sensory experience, what was that like, and what did that entail

Jamie
The ballet company in the next biggest city over from us, they have a small company and actually have a school and do classes and things like that as well, and they always do the Nutcracker as a part of their usual the in their lineup of shows for the year, and they do a really good job. They always sponsor that sensory friendly performance, they actually have other businesses and organizations, philanthropic organizations to come alongside them and help sponsor it. So very much a community affair, and, you know, pretty much anyone within the area that has a sensory disability of some type, whether it be blindness, autism, deafness, you know, those with physical impairments, you know, they pretty much run the gamut, and they spread a wide umbrella and everybody gets invited to that show, they do do several things to make it more accessible, they do leave the lighting at more of an even level, and they don't lower it down quite so much. They also typically play the music and a little bit of a lower volume so that it's not quite so overwhelming, especially, you know, for those that are hearing sensitive, or those with the autism that can't deal with extreme loudness and volume. You know, they also have times when you can go and touch the costumes and the props and the different things that they use for the show. They usually have the dancers to come afterward, and you know, you could get up closer with of course this is all pre COVID too but you could get up closer with them and, you know, feel their tu-tu or get to their costume to really get that full picture of what they were wearing, or what they were doing. One of the things that hasn't come down the pipe just yet they typically what they will do is they will have people sitting nearby with, you know, the visually impaired population to describe it to them, I would love to see it get to the point to where they had an official describer that was trained to do that and had the, the equipment in place for that, but they're still still a relatively small area. So they're they're kind of working their way to that still, I think, but I have not ever seen or heard anyone walk away not happy or not smiling, you know, everybody that comes out of it just walks out of there just festive and is cheerful and is you know, as happy as they could be.

Lizzy
And Shelby how about for you as someone who minored in dance. I don't know if you've you know, I don't know how deeply have you thought about this before but like, what ideas do you have for making shows more accessible?

Shelby
Yeah, I definitely think that it needs improvement. How to do that? That's a very big question. There's, it's kind of like an onion, there's a lot of layers to it, if maybe we could somehow incorporate something sort of similar to like an audio description, and that they have for like videos and movies, but I really liked how Jamie brought up that they do a sensory show. I think that is really cool, and just being able to have somebody next to you. Really telling you about everything that's going on is amazing.

Lizzy
No, I like what you said about when you said you know, having having an audio describes kind of you know, as it is in various videos and things and Sierra, were you weren't you a part of a talent show one year where I don't know if it was your performance that was audio described or someone else's performance that was audio described, and it was in the in the NFB talent show.

Sierra
Yes, it was Jamie's performance, and I actually audio described it.

Lizzy
So you guys already knew each other

Sierra
Well, sort of, she got in touch with me.

Lizzy
That’s good

Sierra
For-

Lizzy
And how did you go about doing that? Because I think that's something that, um, dance, you know, dance studios or, you know, symphony halls or all these other places they could learn something from from doing that, because you didn't maybe just, you know, explain a little bit about how you went about doing that.

Sierra
Yeah, well, yeah, Jaime before the year before I performed and the NFB talent show, but I didn't have an audio described performance, and I sort of felt bad for it, because I was like, I'm the only one dancing, no one is going to know what I'm doing. So before I actually danced, I did like a brief description of kind of what I was going to do. So I did that, and then I believe it was a month or two later, Jamie contacted me on Messenger, and she said, she saw a photo of me in the talent show, and she was talking about how she was starting ballet, and I kind of helped her out a little with talking about it, and we just became friends, and then the next year she performed in the talent show, and I thought it would be awesome if we could have her performance audio described. So she wrote the script, and she sent it to me, then I recorded it, and it took a while, but we made it work, and somebody edited to put it together, and we did it

Jamie
I have also recommended it other times that perhaps that a list of the ballet terminology may be available, and that's something that may also help, maybe not from as much from a descriptive end, but from a from another end is just having a list of the terms and what a play is, and what a time do is so that people can at least read over that and have a general idea of the movement, and that has helped to, there have been times where we've done that as well, but the description track was just kind of a natural thing to come about, but it did take a lot of work, and I was very thankful that I had a friend that could take Sierra's vocal track and the song and mash it all together and make it happen in a way that the descriptions in the song fit together. I mean, almost seamlessly.

Lizzy
And it was just I heard rave reviews about it afterward I was I'm usually working front of the house. So I'm outside collecting tickets and all that during the talent show, so I missed it, but it was I heard really great things about it. So I think that's definitely something that can be done by different people who want to make accessible performance, because think about it, this is something that can be prepared ahead of time. So people, you know, no one has to sit there, and you know, figure out okay, well, who's going to sit in the back into the audio description for whoever needs it? No, it's just something that is already available, and I just I love that idea. Um, another part of the sensory experience that each of you have touched on in different ways, is the outfit, and so I thought, you know, sometimes it's really hard as a blind person to get a description of something that people that everyone's so used to seeing, because people aren't thinking to write these descriptions on Google for, you know, a random person who wants to read about it instead of looking at the image. So I'd like for each of you to describe your favorite or you know, maybe one, it doesn't have to be your absolute favorite, you could honestly make something up, I wouldn't know the difference, but one of your favorite pieces of the ballet costume.

Shelby
I mean, most of the time you just wear like a basic, basic leotard. So it's just like kind of like a body suit. It's all one piece, and they can have spaghetti straps on the top. They could be off the shoulder they could be short sleeve, just a whole bunch of different kinds, and then they go down, and most of them button at the bottom, and then you wear tights as well. Usually usually black or light pink, slash nude, and then of course the ballet shoes, but one of my favorite ones that I got the privilege of wearing. Oh, it's so beautiful. It was it was just like a basic, basic one, but it was just covered in glitter just covered in sparkles, and it was my favorite because even though I could see a little bit more than I do now at the time, it was just so amazing to me to be able to just have have that tactile feedback, because most of the time, these outfits are so intricate and so detailed, and it's really hard to, like be able to see every single little detail, but this one had like lace and then it was covered in sequins and oh my god, it's so beautiful, and it's, it's light pink, which is my favorite color, and contrary to stereotype, I just thought I would throw this in there. Not every dancer that that does ballet wears a tu-tu. So for that dance, I didn't wear tu-tu, but there is some times where they do have us but more often than not, in my experience. At least they didn't have us wear them.

Lizzy
Do you usually wear the tights under the leotard or over? That's a weird question, but I'm curious.

Shelby
Yeah, I see you can show off the whole leotard pretty much like a onesie. Yeah, yeah. So without the feet and all that just that is

Lizzy
That is true. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Could you describe the shoes to us

Jamie
in ballet, the one of the big milestones and everybody even even if you say you really don't want to, I don't know too many people that do ballet that don't want to work their way into what they call the point shoes right now. The one yet is just still in regular flat ballet slippers, which is what you start in, and then as you get older in your area, not really to get older, but for your children, they there is an age limit that you have to hit before your feet are developmentally ready to do point work, and for an adult, you just have to wait until your feet gets strong enough to that point where they're ready, but I have not worked my way into shoes and I just use the regular simple you know ballet slippers

Lizzy
and what are those like? Are they soft? are they hard on the bottom are they describe them? Your ballet slippers, that's fine.

Jamie
Okay, and I use what they call split cells slippers, where instead of having, like a tennis shoe has one piece of rubber or whatever on the bottom that your foot steps down on. It separates it into two. So you have a leather kind of a leathery bottom harder little bottom part, and you have it kind of under the tip your toes in the bottom of your foot and then again on your heel, but in the middle. It's stretchy fabric again so that your foot can bend and articulate better.

Lizzy
Yes, I’ve seen those

Jamie
Yeah, two straps that go across the top that criss cross that makes sure you're you know, make sure they don't come flying off and pretty form fitting

Lizzy 17:41 – Adaptive techniques
Wow, that's so cool. Thank you. Now I'd like to get into some of the, the you know, adaptive techniques that you will use in order to be successful with your dance. So I know Sierra, you are taking online classes right now because obviously everything's virtual was COVID What is that like?

Sierra
Not the same as regular, but it is doable. I just have to make sure that the teacher is being very verbal because she is not there to touch me to physically position me if I need or for me to feel heard. So I have to really pay attention and especially on Zoom when sometimes you know you have some breakouts you can't really hear may have to ask her to repeat something and it is hard dancing in a really small space to I'm afraid to hit something if I do a turn

Lizzy
But you know I mean you're making it work and I mean it seems that it seems to go you know it's pretty successful for you so far right?

Sierra
Yeah yeah

Lizzy
Has anyone else tried online dance classes?

Shelby
I have it is a struggle. Even though I like know exactly what I'm supposed to do when she when they say like specific words and terminology. I'm like okay, this is just so in like Sierra said just being in such a small space you don't have the right flooring so you don't travel as far and your turns aren't as fluid as they usually were are with the floor in a dance studio. So it's just it's very difficult. Like Sierra said, I have also hit many things in my house, but I was kind of laughing when you were saying that because it made me think when I was in college I the dance studio was like right across the street from my house. So I could just have walked over there, but I just wanted to dance like all day long, and the studio would be close. So I would be in my room in my apartment, tiny apartment, trying to use like my desk chair as a bar and trying to do my turns in between my bed and my desk, and it was a mess, but we got through it.

Lizzy
And I know Sierra, she mentioned tactile adaptations that she uses for her dance classes. Do you have any Shelby that you use

Shelby
Before a while ago, when I had a little bit more sight, I used to just have issues when like the lights would turn down. Because a lot of times when you're practicing on stage or things like that, they turned on the lights, because that's how they're going to be during a performance. So that was one of the biggest things for me just making sure they had the lights on like, super, super high for me, so I could see where I was going, and even now that I have a lot less sight, the only thing I can see is light, and so I really, really rely on that feedback from the light to kind of show me where I am in relation to the stage and things like that, but like Sierra said, just having somebody finding somebody that is very, very distinct in what they're saying, and very descriptive can be very difficult, but thankfully, I've been working with some of the same people for a very long time. So I have found people that work like that, but it is tricky, especially if you are in like a group class, being able to do the exercises with them. At the bar, it's pretty simple, because you just have like your own little space, and then when you go cross the floor, which you do exercises from one side of the room to the other, and usually you're in like three lines or four lines, depending on the group size, and just making sure that you're not like going off course or running into anybody. Yeah, but just having somebody there that really is going to give you that detail is huge. Because if you don't have that, then you're just gonna keep doing the same thing over and over and over, and it's probably going to be wrong.

Lizzy
Now, I've read about tactile floor markings for and I don't know if that would be useful for some of those things that you mentioned where you were talking about staying in line, or things like that, I guess there there are like types of tape that you can put on the floor, and you can feel it through the ballet slipper does anyone is anyone

Shelby
Yeah, I have actually used those. When you do regular barre and the regular ballet slippers, they're really effective. Because they're kind of almost like not really like a speed bump, but it is like a tape texture, and then they have like tactile texture on top of that, but it's kind of almost the ones that I've used, they're kind of almost like a grassy texture. So when your foot goes by it, you can kind of feel it, and like it grazes your foot and your leg, but then when I started using pointe shoes, that became a little trickier because the bottom of the pointe shoe where your toes are, is very, very hard, and flat, and so I then how do you get very creative and we started using these the same thing, but we started making them kind of at like an angle, and if that makes any like an incline so that way when my the bottom of my foot went over it or my toe, the flat part of my toes would catch the incline, and so I would know if I was like going to the left, or going to the right, or if I was like staying on the flat part of the incline and I was good.

Lizzy
I see. So you had to modify, you still use them, but you just had to modify them a little to fit with the pointe shoe. Wow, that's really cool, and also for the listeners who don't know about the barre. You mentioned it so I've seen one before it's basically just a sort of like railing about the mirror right and it's just it's, it's horizontal, and you can hold on to it when you do different things that require some balancing. What is it for and I don't know what it's for. I have seen one but I don't know what it's for.

Shelby
So yeah, It is mainly for like, if you need to catch your balance. It serves as like a study, not something that doesn't move. So it helps you if like you're going on relevancy. So if you're going fully on to the tips of your toes. At first, you do need to like hold on to it, or else you're going to fall, and it helps with terms and it just is like your base. So if you ever feel off center or anything, you can go back to that.

Lizzy
Wow, and, Jamie, how about you? What adaptive techniques do you use in your ballet class?

Jamie
That's a good question. One of the things and it was really cool, because both of the instructors that I've worked with just automatically did this, once they found out I was blind. They're they've both been very verbally descriptive with me, and my current one really does a super good job of just being very thorough when she explains and describes things, and she always does such a great job of coming up with an object list, and she'll take an object and out of the everyday environment that I'm familiar with, to get across the concept that she's helping me with. We've kind of described like, potted like the pas de cheval motion, which is the it's called, that's French for step of the horse and your foot almost does the motion kind of like a horse's hoof, and she described to me how that that's almost like one of the sticky hands out of the candy machines that they used to have where you would, you would whip it out, and it would go really long, and then it would foof come back, you know. So she's very creative and innovative with finding something like that I'm familiar with to help drive whatever it is the concept that we're working on helping me do and because I worked with her for a while as well, I'm also fine if she needs to touch an arm or a leg or show me which muscle group needs to be tighter or needs to be straighter, or whatever the case may be. So she doesn't have to touch me as much as you would think that it's only maybe once in a while, you know, maybe, you know, once every few months, maybe something might require that but usually verbal does the trick, and I've been so blessed that even through COVID, I have still been able to do my private lessons because it's just me and the instructor. So the studio that I've worked at still allowed anything that was a one on one to still take place. Even despite the the rest of the classes and things. Some of the bigger group things had to be shut down there for quite a while, but the thankfully my private is kept going. So that kind of has given me an anchor through all of this, and I have tinkered doing some supplemental things online as well, but might with my schedule. A lot of the times when they're offered, I don't catch it right when it's been strained, and so some things I'm going and picking back up on YouTube later if it's something that they'll upload after the fact, but I haven't gotten to deal with quite as much of that as I'm wanting to, because it's just the way my schedule works, but-

Lizzy 28:12 – worst experiences
No, but that makes that makes perfect sense, and it sounds like you know, you've been really fortunate and like you really don't need to do any online classes, because you're still able to take your private lessons. So that's a great interview, it talks about what works for you, and then, you know, in ballet classes, but now I want you to think of a time when you had like a really bad experience or like your worst instructor just like your worst like class or whatever that thing is? Or was, I'd like to just take a moment to reflect on, you know, what, what were the misunderstandings that happened? What was done incorrectly, what could have been done better, and the reason why I want to talk about this is not to dwell on it, but just to maybe shed light, there could be people, you know, there could be someone listening, who's an instructor who is doing these things, or was thinking about doing these things, and they just didn't know that they were doing the wrong thing. So I just like to and obviously this is all personal opinion, but if anyone has a story, I'd love to hear it.

Shelby
I think when I started college at a community college, and then I transferred to a university for the rest of the my bachelor's degree, but when I transferred it was my first class, my first ballet class at the school, and I was put in with beginners because that's just how the school works. You had to start at the beginning and then move your way up and I was okay with that, but it was really difficult because each instructor and teacher has their own way of teaching and some time seems the way they want you to do things can be a little different, and I made them very aware of like, this is my situation, I need to be at the front of the room as much as possible. So I could see myself in the mirror, and kind of figure out what I'm doing wrong, but also, so I could see you because ballet is very, very detailed, and if you do miss, like, a little part of where somebody's ankle is, or something, it throws the whole thing off, and so I just, I really struggled with this one teacher for the whole semester, because they would forget that I needed to be in the front, and they would kind of have us like switch rows. So if you start in the front, you'd go to the back, and so everybody would have a chance to really be in the front, but I had a huge issue with that, because a couple of times, I was all the way in the back of the room, and I'm like, I have no idea what's going on. So I hope that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but a lot of the times, there was a couple of times where I would get called out like he would just straight call me out because I would be like I said it just doing even the smallest thing slightly different. Because there is a lot of moves that are very similar, just a little thing can change it to something else, and so I was getting really frustrated, because at least like once a week, I would be getting called out in front of my entire class, and I'm like, I know what I'm doing. I just need a little bit of extra help here.

Lizzy
So was this instructor not verbal? As well, in addition to putting you in the back? Were they also not explaining? Or was it like what else like it was or something more to it? Or?

Shelby
Yeah, I think just I was surprised because it was a beginner class, how much they weren't talking and describing things. Like I'm, I knew what all the words meant, but he just thought, Oh, I'm gonna give you the list of everything written down at the beginning of the school year. Hopefully, you can then pick it up and figure it out. So it was really rough, and then I would like stay after and help other students, and then sometimes you'd be like, Oh, he would cut me off and be like, Hey, you're actually teaching them a different step, and I'm like, What are you talking about? I'm showing them what you showed me? And he's like, No, I actually wanted you to do it like this, and I was like, Well, if you just told me that. Right, it wouldn't have been an issue.

Lizzy
But your minor adjustment, it just, you know, just communication. Wow. So it sounds like it sounds like the there was like a huge, I guess like miscommunication there, but I've I've also noticed that in dance classes, instructors who want to move students around the class, so they can see everyone and I usually just request like, no, because I always like to be front and center, and nothing like and not for me to see them or anything like that, but just because it's so much easier if I need to physically, you know, look at what they're doing. Or if they need to position my body, I'm right there, they don't have to walk to the back of the classroom, or I don't have to, you know, stand there making funny faces in the mirror while like, you know what I mean? Try to figure out how to get their attention. So, it is true that that does happen sometimes where they want the class to move around, and I think that the minute a student sees that, and that's the time to talk about your accommodations, and, you know, if you have a good Office of Disabilities, and you're doing this in school, then that's a good time to, you know, bring them in, and if it's not in a school just to whoever's the higher up, you know, discussing it with them and saying, Listen, I need this, this as an accommodation or, you know, like we like just or nothing, we just have to figure it out. Figure it out. It's got to get done. I mean, Sierra, you've been dancing for a while. Have you been like, you know, just very lucky the whole time, or have you ever had an experience? That could have been better?

Sierra
I was auditioning for a musical last year, and it was the dance audition, and I before, before the audition, I told them that I needed them to be very verbal and what they were saying, and they said, Okay, so we go on stage, and we were starting the warmup, and I didn't realize I was at the very back of the stage where I couldn't really hear what the teacher was saying. So he starts calling out combination, and I'm trying to understand what he's saying and I couldn't really hear him, and I'm like, what, what do you say? And the girl beside me was trying to show me what to do, and then he turns on this, the music, and it is so loud. I couldn't, I could not concentrate. I didn't know what we were doing, and the girl was trying her best to help me, and I was trying to feel her and see what she was doing, and I just felt so awkward the entire time.

Lizzy
That sounds just terrible, honestly

Sierra
It was

Lizzy
And I'm assuming that you spoke to him ahead of time.

Sierra
Yeah, and then they come up and tell and asked me if I already had a routine planned for the audition. No, I didn't. You didn't tell anyone else they had to prepare routine. So why I?

Lizzy
Exactly. Exactly. So how did you end up working out? Like, I mean, did you? Were you able to learn the dance? Or what happened?

Sierra
Well, when we were everyone was doing dance, and I was trying my best to keep up with everyone, but then, you know, he said, Everyone take a break, and I was like, okay, and he comes up to me, and he helps me, you know, learn the dance, and I was thanking God for that, at least he did that for me.

Lizzy
Yeah, that's so true. As we write our white pages to directors, producers, casting agencies, that also includes dance instructors, and, you know, it's, that's one of the things that we're writing about is how to handle auditions as a blind person, and one of the things that we wrote is, you know, if you're teaching a large group, it's also advisable to to have someone who already knows a dance not not another student who's learning it and barely knows it themselves, and is trying to teach someone else, but for an instructor, who already knows the dance, to assist, and you know, to teach the blind person visually, because maybe there's questions that you have, you know, that you want to clarify, or, you know, different things like that, and it could be something that's simple visually, but non visually, it may not be as simple, and so that's definitely something that I think would have helped in this case, you know, as if, you know, he had someone there who already knew the dance to, you know, teach you that, and then then you could just join in with the rest of the group, and you'd be right on to ask, you know, you'd be right on par with everyone else.

Sierra
And part of me feels like maybe I should have spoken up and said, Please put me in the front, I need to hear. I believe even if I was in the front, it would have still been loud, because the music was really loud.

Lizzy 37:49 – How to maintain orientation
Yeah, yeah, and you know, that happens. Sometimes a dance class, I remember my very first class. So the instructor, she thrown loud music just screaming over it, and I could barely hear her, you know what I mean? But you know what, that's true, and also to you live in your learn, you know, like, no one's perfect, and you didn't know that that music was going to be so loud, and you already felt so uncomfortable. I don't think I would have felt comfortable raising my hand and then asked me for an accommodation. You know what I mean, after awkward already, you know, wow, what an experience. How about for you, Jamie? I was going to ask you how you found your dance studio, but you said that one of them you found through Belle, and I think that's really good, and I think that that's something that can be done more within the Federation, as an organization is, is maybe state affiliates reaching out to local dance studios or whatever, whatever, you know, Visual Performing arts organizations is, you know, local, because if they have the experience of, you know, working with blind people already, and then we show, you know, hey, yeah, we aren't interested, and now that we know, like, we already feel welcome, and we're interested in doing it anyway. You know, that's a great way to connect blind people with local organizations. So thank you for that idea. That's, that's really good. I'm actually getting a lot of great information that I think that we as a division can incorporate in the coming years. So one, one of the things that we've discussed in a roundabout way is the music and part of ballet. I know there's what orchestra or you know, like there's like music in a pit. How, and there's also a lot of turns, as you've you've all mentioned turns in valet How do you keep orientation? How do you maintain your orientation onstage with loud music with, you know, these fancy shoes on with all the turns? But what is it that you prefer to do to maintain orientation? Is it something that you've requested ahead of time? Is it something you know, do you use the music as a way to orient yourself how do you how do you maintain orientation on stage?

Sierra
Well, when I first get on stage. Even before a performance, I like to walk the stage to get a feel of it. Even if it's an instructor or whoever walking beside me, I like to have my cane so that I can feel how wide it is, and also where the edge is, but then when I go on stage, I usually don't have my cane, but I try to make sure that I'm very acquainted with it, and how I orient myself when I'm dancing. It, it's the music, the music just brings out everything, and when turning, really, when you're totally blind, or anyway, what even if you aren't, you really have to whip your head around as you turn. Because if you don't, you will get dizzy.

Lizzy
Is that the trick to it? I never knew that.

Sierra
Yes, whipping your head, because it's all in this space in your inner ear.

Lizzy
I'm going to try that tonight as soon as we finish up with the podcast. So if I'm turning to the left, I would whip my head to the left and then I would spin that way or turn that way. Right? Or am I whipping in the opposite direction?

Sierra
Oh, you would think in the same direction as you're turning.

Lizzy
Alright, cool, so, I'm turning to the left and whipping to the left. Alright, I got it. I will try this out. Thank you, and Shelby.

Shelby
Yeah, so usually, if you were sightful-- sighted, and be able to see, like Jamie said, you would just find like, something that won't move. So if there was like a chair or a sign, and you put your, you put your eyes on that, and that way, when you come back from the turn, you go directly back to where that is, and that helps you not get as dizzy, but for us, it's just making sure that you get your head around as fast as you possibly can. Staying in the same speed as your body, obviously, because that could be painful, but just making sure that you whip your head around, because that's gonna keep you on track, especially when you're up all the way in the highest relevancy on pointe shoes. If you lose the tiniest little bit of balance, it's not going to end well. So just trust me, I've had it happen. I've never used spots. So thankfully, I am able to do that, but just also when learning routines. I use a lot of those tactile markers, and I'll put them on the floor. So that way I know Hey, okay, I went from there, and I went to here and I made my I made my spot, and that helps. It's a lot it mainly honestly, muscle memory. Because once you've done a turn, or once you've done a jump just so many times, it becomes second nature almost to the point where like, you still got to think about it, but it just kind of does it. So yeah, muscle memory is a huge, huge thing.

Lizzy
Wow, and you know, I mean, that makes sense that you can essentially just train your body to remember for itself. So that seems like that would be a good tactic to use.

Shelby
Unless you remember incorrectly.

Lizzy 43:39 – entering and exiting the stage
Oh, that's yeah. That's always terrible. Yep, but that's, you know, where the instructor comes in, hopefully soon enough before it's too late, and then I know you mentioned tactile markers for navigating the stage. What about entering and exiting how to usually enter and exit the stage?

Shelby
The muscle memory definitely helps. Just knowing when I'm orienting myself to the stage at the beginning, I definitely try to like, I kind of sprint, it's kind of weird. It really works. So I'll just like go to from the beginning where you enter and then I'll go to like where my first spot is, and then I'll go back and I'll just keep doing that a couple times. Kind of like training a guide dog to find you something you just kind of do it a couple times, and then I will mark through the rest of my spots but and then going off stage. I just go to my very last spot and then go off and do the same thing. It is time consuming, but it's very helpful especially when I was in Color Guard. You know you're on a huge field, a huge football field. during football season, and so everybody else has like their little books that they write down where they gotta go, and they, we kind of put them on the ground. So that kind of taught me, and at least with a football field, like you can use the lines on the, on the ground, like the white lines to kind of orient yourself, and just other people to, especially if you have a little bit of usable vision, knowing where people are in this space is super important, because, you know, we want to be whacking anybody.

Lizzy
And how about you, Sierra? How do you you don't actually use your cane onstage? So how do you usually enter and exit? Do you sort of like dance on with someone? Or what do you usually do?

Sierra
If I'm gonna say hello, I, even if I'm not, while I'm in the wings, sometimes I will take my hand and feel where the end of the curtain is just so I can make sure. Okay, the stage is over, it's right there, you're gonna walk this far to get to sit or whatever, and even though they say, they'll tell us don't go out of the wing, or they'll you'll be seen.

Lizzy
Yeah, they’ll see you

Sierra
I'm like, Well, if my hands going to be seen, uh, well, it's like a stagehand. So, I'll be in my spot, and then when I go out, I usually try to count in my head where I am, and I will do my thing, and then I usually go off on the other side of the stage. So I'm usually trying to listen to everyone in that wing, because they'll usually be clapping or shouting. Now try to run to that. I'm in a group, I'm, if we're in a line, I'm usually holding on to somebody's shoulder, and then we'll run out, and then wherever the spot is, I may step back a couple inches from the person so that way, I'm in my spot, and then while dancing in the group will do different arm like, hold their hands certain way or, and then going off, will grab a hand or shoulder and runoff.

Lizzy
Jamie? How do you enter an exit? Do you prefer to use a cane use it. Some other method, we got so many different methods here.

Jamie
Like there's a lot I do typically try to take my cane as far back stage as I can. I've had, you know, several events that I've done that were kind of NFB related, and so I was able to walk right on stage with my cane and put it in front of me or behind me or that sort of thing, and then it would, you know, perform and then you know, grab it and walk off. If I can't do that, or if I'm in a position to where I want to walk off, you know, I want to walk on stage without it, then what I'll do is I'll at least usually, hopefully be able to take it into the wings, and there again, if I can have access to the stage ahead of time just to kind of scope it out and get like you say get the size, you get the size, get the feel whether it's the right stage or not, which means there's an incline or not. That's all very handy to know, and if I can, if I can get access to that ahead of time I try to obviously, but sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't. If it's a group that I would hand on the back of a shoulder works pretty well, and I'm also a pretty good echo locator. So I will try to get a sense of the sound aspects and the ambient sounds in a place, and you know, sometimes you can, you know, you can get some cues for that as well, you know, if you need to walk across and find the other wing, or if you're entering and exiting different wings of the stage that usually helps there too.

Lizzy 49:02 – Advice for anyone that wants to get into ballet
Wow, that makes perfect sense. Well, this is gonna be my last question coming up, and so I'd like to take the time to thank each of you for coming on and giving us such great advice. Seriously, it's been helpful to me, and I know it's going to be helpful to our listeners as well, and so what advice do you have for people who want to get into ballet? What would you tell them to do? You know, to do first? You know what, what helpful hints that haven't been given here already Would you would you give to them?

Sierra
My advice to give would be if you really want to do ballet, do it. Don't let your brain convince you. Oh, I can't do this. This is going to be too hard because I do that sometimes. Just go with your gut and go with your heart. Contact a studio near you and Make sure the teachers know how to assist you, and what you need. Even contact some blind dancers, they will help you too

Lizzy
For sure. Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us today. How about you, Jamie?

Jamie
Basically, I'm going to kind of echo Sierra, you know, if you want to, if you have, there's you only if you want to try it, don't let anything stop, you don't, oh, I never, you know, and, you know, don't think I'm too young, I'm too old, my body is the wrong type, don't, you know, if you've got a body and you can, you can move it, then you've got a dancer's body, don't let that don't let any preconceived notions that you have, you know, stop you, you know, just get in there and try it, you know, because like I said, I was 43 years old, when I started and did not dance as a child or do anything like that before and have just flourished and grown exponentially since I started and just dancing, it just gives me so much joy, you know, it just you just feel so free when you're in that moment. So, you know, I mean, I just encourage you just get in there, get in there and try and yeah, you may kind of have a couple of bumps in the road with finding a studio that will work with you or, you know, getting that right fit with weather, you know, should it be a class, should it be a private lesson, you know, that sort of thing, but, you know, don't let any, don't let any preconceived notions you have, you know, stop you from getting in there and trying to do it. Because if you if you want it bad enough, you can get it.

Lizzy
You know, you're totally right. Like, everyone has options, and I mean, you know, just if we, as we've seen in this interview, you know, often times with great success, also come some some rough patches, you know what I mean? Unless you and your case me, you were able to have a connection ahead of time. So even if you don't have those connections, and you do have a bad experience, just keep pushing through. That's really That's good advice. Thank you for being on with us today and for, for sharing your wisdom, and Shelby, what do you have for us?

Shelby
Definitely what they both said, it's amazing, but just don't let anybody else tell you what you can and cannot do. Definitely, I mean, that's something that is echoed throughout the NFB, which is amazing, but I like to say Don't let anyone dull your sparkle. Because if you have something in you, and you have an interest for doing anything, just don't, don't let anybody stop. You don't want to really say, oh, that's probably not a good idea, or you can't do that. I did color guard for six years, and if you guys have ever seen that you're throwing rifles in the air flags, sabers, which is like a sword, and I hit myself a lot, but I did it. I couldn't see to the first row of like, where the audience was, but I did it. I found ways to work around it, and a lot of the times now I look back and like how the heck did I do that? But I'm, I'm so happy because that's what really got me into dance, and I was able to go to multiple state championships and national championships I was able to perform on the cold stadium field in Indianapolis twice, like I I would have been so sad looking back, like why didn't I do it, right, I should have pushed myself. So, and even now, I think it's the perfect time to start because even when I couldn't be in class, I just went on YouTube and said, How do I do this? How do I do a basic turn? How do I just do that and just work with what you have. You don't have to have anything fancy. You don't even really need to have ballet shoes or anything to get started. Just get a feel of the movements, and like Jamie said, if you've got a body, you can move it.

Lizzy
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. Because it's true. More often, we regret what we did not do as far as I knew, as opposed you know, then trying, then regretting that we did try something that we wanted to try. So you're exactly right about that, and thank you so much for being on our show today and for giving such such great advice. You guys were all great, and I really enjoyed this panel. You know, and it feel free to keep in touch with each other and the performing arts division. I mean, you all seem like you've got some really good tips and advice to share. I hope that you become active on our listeners, social media if you aren't already and share some of your wonderful wisdom there. Thank you all so much, and this has been another episode of 'Scene Change'.

Katelyn
I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Chris Nusbaum, Seyoon Choi, and Precious Perez with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.