Shane 0:00 – Continuing the live panel

What's going on my name is Shane Lowe, producer of "Scene Change" and I would like to welcome you to part two of our audio description live panel recorded last July at the 2021, National Federation of the Blind national convention. We hope you enjoy it, and don't forget to check out the other episodes of "Scene Change" available as well, we put one out the 15th of every month. So stay tuned to our YouTube, our anchor and anywhere else to get your podcasts for more episodes of "Scene Change".

0:41 – Intro

Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.

Lizzy 1:11 – Theaters starting out with audio description

So Joel, when a theater is starting out with something like audio description, would they sort of contact you and take one of your classes or—

Joel

Right 

Lizzy

or your online resources? Sort of like enough for them to be able to?

Joel

That's one component, certainly, everything ever said is right on, but yes, you need to be sure that the people to do the description are well trained. There's a big, big difference between description that distracts and description that enhances, and you need to have people who know how to do that description, I often times think the best way is to do it in person. That's where much of my travel comes from by providing that training, but that's another reason why the book is out there the visual made verbal, and then yes, there are more online training opportunities now, given the COVID crisis and such. So yeah, they need to know, and if they haven't invested already in eliciting equipment, they need to have that equipment. Often times that same equipment can be used for audio description if it's a dual channel, and you know, there is expense, but it's a matter of priorities. Do you want to be inclusive? Are you open to the public, meaning everybody in the public? Well, you need to be inclusive than you need to be accommodations. Grants are available, private from private companies, individuals, foundations, and government money as well. That will help jump start a program. It's readily available, and I would encourage folks to explore that.

Lizzy

This is awesome, and I did not forget about my other question for you Joel. I still have that here, but I would like to check in and see if there are any more questions from the audience

Katelyn

So I have have a few and I thought I would kind of combine do you want me to ask all three of them right now or just one at a time

Lizzy

Just ask one, we have time

Katelyn 3:00 – Where do you sign up for the class

So real quick, Ryder was wondering where you sign up for the class that was mentioned earlier?

Joel

Oh

Katelyn

For blind people

Joel

Yeah. The, she's referring perhaps, to my class,-- Absolutely. August 2nd through 6th will be five half day, and I would simply go to the audio description project website. There's a big article there about it, and it'll give you a link to sign up for the class. It'll be virtual. This time, of course, acb.org, slash ADP Roy to provide your information about doing the voicing?

Roy

Sure. So right now I'm using a an email address, just to get things going. It's my name at Hey, hey.com, that's RoySamuelson at H-E-Y dot com.

Shane 3:55 – Giving the email address

Hi, this is Shane, the producer of "scene change", and I wanted to pause that just for a second because there were a couple of internet breaks that we weren't able to fix. That email address is Roy samuelson@hey.com.

Roy

And I'd also like to say how important that this is just for the voicing. It's taking those scripts that that Joel and his team have crafted and bringing those to life in a way that doesn't get in the way. It's a it's a nuanced performance. It's a lot to do with when writing is done. So great. You can imagine going to a Shakespeare play, and at the end of the the first act, when intermission comes you could be crying because you're so moved by the performances. Or you could be crying because you do not want to enter this theater again, for the second half.

Joel

That’s true

Roy

The writing is the same the writing is Shakespearean and it's the same writing but a bad performance can make it horrible, and in the same way, I think that that's a fair comparison to when it comes to to voicing and obviously that that's my focus, but beyond my own efforts, it's making sure that blind people are included in this and not just, hey, I've got a good voice. The the work that goes into performance, specifically in voice is not just having a good voice in the same way that a concert pianist is not going to be said, Oh, that was such a great concerto. Where did you get your manicure? It doesn't make sense. So like, there's a lot of work that goes into it, and I think that with this pandemic that we're coming out of, there's so many opportunities for virtual training, whether it's taking an improv class, I know that the actors access Academy that is a part of NFB does train blind people and that's all about intention. It's all about what that performance is and audio description is not less of performance, it's more wire act, it's that sort of thing, and when it comes to ensure that blind professionals are in this work, that's incredibly important, and making sure that they're paid their value that as audio description grows, beyond the mandate, that absolutely necessary mandate that the FCC has given us that was for all the content that we have. Beyond the mandate, there are technological advances and cultural shifts that allow this work to not how cheap can we make it but how great can we make it and to see it as the opportunity that it is to make it as great as it can parody decided audiences so that's--, I'm sorry, how many soap boxes am I allowed?

Lizzy

You are allowed all the boxes today. So we've thrown all the soap boxes, actually, when you're standing on them. So um, so Katelyn

Katelyn

Next question?

Lizzy

Yes

Katelyn

Okay, I actually have a few more. So all right, so I'm going to kind of combine a few into one here because—

Lizzy

Honestly, honestly you’re good

Katelyn 6:46 – How do you decide what audio description to use

I think they work together. There are a few questions about how do you decide what audio description to use? What words to use for the script, especially in certain situations, such as an animated movie where there's a ton of action happened all really fast, and all kinds of stuff doesn't have to be animated any kind of action movie where there's tons of stuff happening. Or the commercials that were mentioned earlier where it's all words, how do you fit that in? Or something like Hamilton, that has, you know, song after song after song? Where do you fit in the audio description? And how do you decide what to say and what to use?

Lizzy

You know what, Katelyn, I love that question, because that fits right into the question that I wanted to ask Joel and the way that I look at it was how do you write so much in such a short amount of time.

Joel

But you know, it's not a matter of so much as in quantity, it's really is about the quality of the words that you choose. The great 17th century, French mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal wrote a long letter to a friend and ended it with, 'I've only made this letter longer, because I have not had the time to make it shorter.' Audio describers must know how to edit how to get the bang buck. Rather than we say, walk in the time that it takes to say walk you can tell somebody what they're doing and how they're doing it. If you say prance, stroll, or whatever. So it's about language to a great extent, and, you know, some questions then about, well, how do you decide what to describe? Well, that's really important. That's second fundamental, and what I tell people is to ask themselves, what is most critical to an understanding, he points to his head, and an appreciation, his hand is on his heart of the visual image, zero in on that, let everything else go. Just like Everette said, you know, you don't, you can't, you simply can't get everything in there. Explain everything that's happening visually. So you have to be selective. A picture's worth 1000 words, aha, maybe? I have not. I've yet to meet a blind person who wants to hear somebody describe a picture with 1000 words, you know. So I think the describer would say that a few well chosen words will be most effective at creating an image in the mind's eye.

Lizzy

That's very true. I don't even know if I want a picture described in 100 words, I'm very much up to the point. You know what I mean? Like, all right, all right. Let's-- do you have any more?

Katelyn

Yes. So I'm kind of similarly on that. I don't know if there's anything more to be said, but how do you you know, strike the balance during music performances?

Lizzy
About Hamilton specifically

Katelyn

How do you strike that balance of talking when there is singing or other talking going on

Joel

Yeah, it's a similar kind of thing. You're right, Katelyn, the the often times you will let a chorus be sung for a musical in particular, obviously, and, and when the chorus is repeated, you use that time to provide precious words of description, you know, there are going to be choruses and then refrains, and there often times is space, within or between, where you can provide description. People go to a musical people go to an opera, to hear the music. So you want you don't want to get in the way, less is more you want to enhance, not distract.

Lizzy

I totally agree with that.

Katelyn

I just have to say, Pittsburgh opera, they provided audio description, and it was fabulous. I was the first time I'd ever been to an opera with audio description, and I loved it. So it can be done, and it can be done well. Yes, a couple more. So—

Lizzy

How many?

Katelyn

Two more for now

Lizzy 10:53 – Society of Voice Arts and Sciences

Okay, so I'm gonna jump in with a question, then we'll turn it back to Katelyn, and then we'll see these raised hands. Thank you guys for being so patient. Um so both Joel and Roy, are familiar with the Society of Voice Arts and Sciences. They do grant awards, and they've recently created a new category, which includes audio description, which Roy was nominated for in 2019. So first of all, start with Joel, because I believe this is this will be your first year attending is that right Joel?

Joel

First year with audio description, recognizing audio describers, and, in fact, I'll be doing a session on YouTube about that, this evening. You can look it up under sovas. S-O-V-A-S dot com. I believe that I might be wrong about that it might be dot org, but that's the neat thing. Rudy Gaskins runs, some of us, has just been amazingly wonderful at being inclusive, and understanding that audio description is a critical part of the media production, and we need that kind of visibility, forgive the expression, if you will, to get to get it understood more, and to get more of it. So sovas s-o-v-a-s Roy, you can add to that I'm sure.

Roy

About three years ago, I submitted for a sovas award for an audio description track for a narration cat in the narration category for that exact purpose, it was to outreach into the entertainment, I noticed that there was that connection, that means so much when it comes to our audiences and the entertainment industry, and there were a lot of companies that were doing it super well, but what about those other opportunities they might not be aware. So as of, I think a few years ago, maybe last year, there were more submissions, and beginning this year, and beyond just a phone call Rudy and I have had countless hours of conversations and advice and, and consulting and advising, and you know, with Joel's help, he's also created the audio description for a promo piece that came out within the last few weeks, but these are the sorts of things that make such a difference that these connections with the entertainment industry, I believe, does help, it makes something a little more aware, I mean, the audio description Awareness Day, we're going to, in 10 months celebrate our third year of the audio description Awareness Day, and these are the kinds of connections that we can continue to forge, and as Joel said, Rudy has been emblematic and like modeling how this how this connection can can make a difference. He's including all text, he's making sure to capitalize the first letter of every hashtag. He's making sure that the videos do have audio description, we went through his website for submissions, we talked about, if there's going to be judges for these new categories, the three new categories to make sure that there's blind judges that are included in it. It's not just a bunch of sighted people. So these are the sorts of conversations that are now happening, and I think with the technology opportunities, as well as the cultural shifts when it comes to performance with disabilities, that these are the kinds of things that I just get so excited about.

Lizzy 14:10 – The benefits of having audio description awards

Everette what do you think the benefits are of having such an event of including the category of audio description, in awards, such as this?

Everette

Roy said it so well, Roy actually helped me become a judge for an upcoming sovas award. So I'm, I'm now listed at that, and it's exactly what Roy said, inclusion. We need to be included in these especially we're the consumers, getting this content consuming this content. So why shouldn't we have a say in what we like and what we dislike, and I think it's important for us to have that opportunity and have that voice out there. So that's, I'm excited about that and excited about the future of awards like this. I think it's very beneficial, very needed, and overdue.

Lizzy 15:01 – Do awards already exist?

Long overdue. Now I'm not familiar do they already have, for example, audio description awards for things? Like, I don't even know if this would be like, appropriate for things like the Emmys or the Oscars? Like, if there was a company who described, you know, a certain movie, like would would they sort of have a, you know, describer versus describers sort of kind of a thing?

Joel

Well, from, from your lips to God's ears, Lizzie, we, the only description crutch was working hard on that we've been in touch with the motion picture Academy to plant the seed for recognition of audio description is and I think, I think will bear fruit sooner than later. Even I'm not sure I'm not counting my chickens, but I will say that about. I'm gonna say 20 years ago, 25 years ago, the Emmys did acknowledge at least the creation of audio description and its promulgation on television, and they awarded four honorary Emmys to the narrative television network to W GBH to the Washington Ear, and I'm forgetting the fourth ouch, but there were four Emmys. Maybe it was those three, and and that was, that was the beginning of some recognition, but it's long overdue to really have it become more mainstream.

Lizzy

Wow. Well, maybe one of my last questions is what do you think the future of audio description is? And that very well could be it, especially if everyone collaborates? And we really push for it? You know? And Katelyn, questions from the audience your questions

Katelyn 16:50 – Audio description for music videos and youtube

Yeah, sure, yeah. So one question about sort of two aspects two things people are wondering, what about audio description for music videos? Is there anything for that? And also, how do you get if you can get audio description on YouTube?

Joel

The end all and be all up description for music video, is really again, from a blind person, Stevie Wonder created 'So what the fuss' was first, or maybe the second I've got a good friend, Jeff Moyer, also blind who did a description for one of his videos, but Stevie's gets a good bit of play. Music Video, 'so what the fuss' was written by W GBH under Stevie's supervision, and then, you know, it's like what we call integrated description. You can't watch the music video without it, the music video and the description are of a piece, and Stevie even had the rapper, Busta Rhymes, voice the description, because it just made sense. To do that it I recommended highly, just put that in the Google. 'So what the fuss' Stevie Wonder, and if you have trouble finding with, I'm not sure you can even find it without description, but if you can't, I will send it to you. I put my email address in the in the chat music video. It begins and ends with with Stevie. I think with YouTube, it's a little trickier. Our friends at the Smith Kettlewell Institute in San Francisco, developed something called you describe, which allows folks to upload to the cloud, something like a YouTube, any YouTube video, and anybody can hopefully with some training, go to that individual video, write description, and then download them and pair them together. That that's otherwise, you know, there are so many what billions of YouTube videos, they're not going to get described commercially. So that's one thing. The other thing that I would ask you all to lobby for is that YouTube, Facebook, all of those streaming services need to use video players that allow you to toggle on and off audio description. They exist. They're out there, and all of them have a toggle switch for captions for audio description, and that future of audio description all those video players should have that it should be just a matter of course.

Everette

Yeah, that's the thing. We've we've been working on hard with Google, whom owns Youtube we we've been lobbying hard with them about that, and I think we're going to see something about that very, very soon from what I'm hearing from Google, then and Joel exactly right. Youdescribe.org is that website. So it's it's all spelled out y o u? The full word describe.org. So and it's it's it's a lot of fun. I do agree with Joel. I think it's better if a describer is trained before they just go ahead and write whatever description it helps a lot, because I don't think like my if my dad tried to describe something, it wouldn't work. You know, you definitely need someone to have a little bit of training.

Lizzy

Wow, that's, that's when I think about I'm still stuck on the Busta Rhymes, Stevie Wonder, because I hadn't heard about that one before, but I'm just picturing it in my head, and I just been like, I'm picturing Busta's voice with Stevie's like, you know, soulful singing, and Busta's very raw, and it's just interesting. So I honestly, I'm enjoying talking to you all, but I can't wait to go look at them.

Katelyn 20:43 – So what is being done?

So let me get my head back in the game. This one takes a similar direction, but a little bit different. What, if anything, is being done? Since the fact that the FCC only mandates 60 or 70? You know, top markets have audio description? What do you do that so much of the rest of the country is being left out?

Lizzy

Everette you want to take it?

Everette

Sure you, you need to lobby, you've got you, if you're in a market that's not getting audio description, you've got to, you've got to get your voice heard you say you've got to talk with the FCC. Will Schell is the person you want to talk to he handles any kind of complaints coming from the FCC. I'm happy to give you his email, I don't have it right off the top of my head, but I'll send it out to you. His name is Will Schell, though, and I know you can find his email his contact info@fcc.org, but he will take those complaints. There is official forms that you can fill out in the FCC, but I like to go right to will, and the more complaints that Will get the more he can start doing things with that, and I I also think it's going to be Congress, we're going to have to lobby Congress to do this because the FCC can only do so much, and your Congress has to do the rest for us, and that's that's what we pay them or we vote them in to do that job, and they get paid to do that job for us, and we just need to remind them that that on a consistent basis.

Joel

I want to tag on to that. That's so critical. Everything Everette said was right on point, but you know, the reason we have audio description on television at all, is because the FCC promulgated a rule in the year 2000 that mandated it. Well, that rule was not sanctioned by Congress. So it was struck down in the courts, but in 2010, President Obama signed the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, great, you know, it put those rules back in there, but the rules require, even now, you know, some some years later, even now, it's only it's seven hours per week, for the top nine broadcasters at only in 60 metropolitan areas, and the law doesn't allow for increases beyond that. So whatever it said about Congress is critical. We make no progress really, in the last four years, I think in this new administration. Now not to get political with y'all. It's just it's just reality, I think now is the time to join with the NFB, the ACB, AFB to push for a CVAA 2.0, that not only will mandate war jurisdictions, they will mandate more hours and they'll put in as they did with captioning 40 years ago, they'll put in a requirement that the level must increase every year by a certain percentage, seven, that's what captioning does, and, and that's what the law did, and we are now at 100% of programs have captioning. Seven hours per week, nine broadcasters does not even equal 1% of all broadcasts out there. The UK is mandated at 10% and they do 20% of all broadcasts have audio description, and if I may, one other point, you know, because there was some talk yet one of there was some talk about you know the expense and such, oh my goodness, the expense to produce description is miniscule compared to just the catering budget of a film. I it that is an absolute fact, and the reason I stress that is because there is a movement that will bring more and more use of text to speech to the audio description production process. Ultimately, that puts out of business. Every blind person out there, who has been trained and does wonderful work as a voice talent. It puts Roy out of business. It puts me out of business to a certain extent, you know, text to speech has its place, and people are buying use it all the time. Used to be, of course, Jaws or Window Eyes or whatever, but for feature films for dramas for narratives, whether they were produced years ago, when they're produced now, you require the nuance that a human voice talent brings to description, and that synergy between the writer and the voice talent. There's no text to speech program out there that does that, and we need to be aware of that, because, you know, it may be that it's coming, and it is already here. For many of Amazon's past videos. We don't want to see it expand further. That's my true belief.

Lizzy

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's fair. Um, let's see, Katelyn, was that all of your—

Katelyn 25:59 – Is Joel’s class mainly for people wanting to write or voice audio descriptions

Quick question for Joel was the class, mainly for people wanting to write the audio descriptions or voice the audio descriptions.

Joel

It's primarily for folks who want to write, but that includes people who are blind, who work as audio description consultants. As I mentioned before we touch on the voicing, but if someone is really strictly interested in in voicing, I send them to Roy, but Roy knows, of course, that the best voice talents, understand what goes into the crafting of audio description. So Roy might send it back to me after he's, I don't know, but you know, so it really we cover all of it, but if it for advanced work, let's put it this way. In vocal skills. Roy Samuelson's the man.

Lizzy

You see, what I'm picking up from this entire episode of the show is that you start off with Joel, you learn to ride it, then you go to Roy, you learn, you know, you learn to voice it, and then you send it to Everett, and he'll tell you if you did good or not.

Roy

Beyond just being a multi level marketing scheme I'd love to go back to at some points of AI, may I have a moment or two for that?

Lizzy

Sure go ahead

Roy

Beyond putting Joel out of business that this AI stuff does have its place, and I love how he put that one of the things that I like to compare, particularly with sighted people when it comes to AI is that. First of all, I have no interest in reading your daily calendar or your email address. Like that is a really great place for AI, but when we're telling a story, there's emotional elements to it, and that nuances is both for writing and for voice that there is, like I'd said earlier, a high wire act when it comes to the content to the to the not only the inflection, but also the intention that an actor brings that AI voice is fascinatingly conversational, it sounds like a person but no sighted person would put up with a four hour audio book of Siri men or Alexa, and the reason is that it's conversational. There's something that's very conversational about this. Oh, my gosh, the Siri is now going to explode because I just said the "A" word know what I'm saying. I apologize if anybody that she she's gonna be going off for a little bit here, but my point is that the takeover is happening right now, maybe this is payback. When it comes to this conversational read, it is conversational, and they do a really great job of that. What they also need to do is make sure it's the inflection, for example, you know, somebody could be, she runs into the pit of hell, he dies in her arms, that's conversational. It's not appropriate. There's intention there that there's meaning behind that, and it's, she gives him the red apple. Well, Joel, you've used this in your book, is she giving her the right Apple as opposed to the green apple? Are she giving her the red apple as opposed to the the peach? Or is she giving him the right apple? Or is she giving as opposed to stealing? Or is she giving him the right Apple as opposed to the other dog that might be in the next room? That's inflection. So I completely agree that AI can be programmed to give inflection, to give intention to give speed to give rate to make sure it goes at the right place to make sure that it's it's an each of these elements. So far, I've mentioned like five or six of them. That's for each sentence of audio description, you multiply that by a 90 page script, no problem. As long as the sighted experience is the same as the blind and low vision experience. I think we're at a good place, but you know that no one would find that that's necessary that taking the time to program that and to keep up with all the software updates and all the glitches and stuff. Why don't take advantage of Joel's experience as a performer for the many years that he has been a performer and if the theatrical performer one I take advantage of the blind performer who has studied this work, and use those skills and cut some corners in that way and say, you know what, this person's already invested their time and strategy and, and skills to do this performance maybe in this in this area. We don't need it, and again, I'll go back to the example of that conversational read of a four hour audio book. Nobody would put.

Lizzy
Everette, do you have anything to add to that?

Everette

I would just say, as a blind individual, there's a reason why the National Library Services is so popular among community.

Lizzy

It’s true

Everette

We love our audio books. We love our human ears, and so I feel the same way these two do about AI in audio description. I, I think it has its place, but I definitely don't think it replaces the human narrator And that human aspect that that I very much want in, in my content.

Lizzy

All right, and then it's human readers all the way. I'd like to take one of those raise hands. Yeah, I don't mind.

Katelyn

Do you want me to help? Janet

Lizzy

Yes please

Katelyn 30:54 – Audience questions/comments

Janet

Janet

Okay, I want to say hi to Joel. I haven't seen you since March, we took the class, eight of us took his class, and I would recommend it I am blind, but as a writer, you can do so much being blind and knowing editing in seconds. It's just an outstanding class, but if I can just say one thing, Joel, I didn't tell you in March, because I didn't know then, but someone did ask a question. I've been listening, and jw.org is now having their audio described videos and dozens and dozens of languages this summer, the powerful by faith convention, no one mandated that we had to do that. This was out of love for blind people. The convention is incredible. The videos on creation and flowers and human body. Everything is audio described. It's just Joel, it's the best one ever.

Joel

I just learned about it today. It's amazing. In almost 50 languages, all the audio description, just amazing.

Janet

It's incredible, and I will just say if any of you want to take this class, it it's a it's a something very needed and Everette, I'm saying hi too.

Lizzy

Awesome. Thank you so much, Janet, for your comments. All right. Hi, Tina. Welcome to the show.

Tina

First off, great show. I'm looking forward to this going in the podcast feed. This is awesome, and I definitely want to agree with both Joel and Roy that artificial intelligence in AD has its place when it's very, you know, just the facts like you know, if it's a cookbook recipe or something, I think most of us don't want to hear it. You know, it's not, it doesn't have to be necessarily a professional voice. It could be very just the facts, and that's where artificial intelligence has its place. One question that sort of hit me in the head is technology because one thing that would be interesting is, you know, how do we keep with new technologies such as apps, I just love the idea of you bring your own device and headset seats for theater because one of the really cool things that I've been working with is bone conduction headsets, which allow you to still hear what's happening in the theater and hear the describer especially if you don't like earbuds. So has there been any research into looking into how to use I'm thinking of an app like Galapro?

Joel

I'll jump in quickly. Galapro from Israel is used for live theater in New York on Broadway shows. It's I don't know that it has gone beyond that particular, or movies or movies and for television, and actually for anything you're listening to. As long as it is with audio does there is an audio description, track, look up spectrum access, the Charter Communications bought Active View, which was an amazing app that listens to what's happening on stage on the screen, and you download to that app, the audio description track, it syncs the two. So you listen from your own smartphone, your own earbud you can listen to a movie at home, nobody else has to hear the description because you're getting it by yourself. It can also be used for alternate languages. It's used to add sound. They can even include the sign interpretation, spectrum access. That's what you need to look for

Lizzy

Spectrum access. Thank you so much for your comments. Excellent and Millie Jensen. I know Millie Jensen from Maryland, hey Millie

Millie

Thank you, and I just have a really good question. I work for an agency in the federal government that produces videos and I've had questions about audio description is there like a quick tips list that I would be able to share? With our communications department to make sure that they're doing this well,

Joel

Yes. The title 508 requires all government agencies to make their media that they produce accessible, and do many government agencies don't quite know that they're supposed to where they haven't been able to find the budget, the National Park Service does an amazing job with it. A few other agencies, I would recommend, perhaps your folks could send me a note at J Snyder at audio described dot com, and I'll put you in touch with some other well, Pat Sheehan is the 504 coordinator blind man for the veterans Department of Veterans Affairs, and he can guide you further on how to build up audio description in your agency.

Lizzy

Millie that sounds like an awesome idea for you to also wait for you to get in touch with the performing arts division, and then we can connect with Joel, and then you can have your question answered.

Denise

Hello

Lizzy

Right, hi, who’s that?

Denise

My name is Denise. I'm not sure if you're speaking to me or not?

Lizzy
Sure

Denise

I apologize if if I'm asking something it's already been addressed because I came in late, but my interest is in opera, and I understand that there are some places where opera is being described, which would be great, but I'm also wondering if there's some way that the description could be combined with a text to speech feature to handle the subtitles?

Joel

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, surtitles or subtitles in a film, say the film. Take paradise from a couple years back. In Korean, the subtitles needed to be voiced for an English speaking audience. That's just part of the audio description. So it might even be done by a second voice talent. It might be done with tone. Now I'm reading subtitles now. I'm describing something like that. I think, surtitles. I don't know that you would need to program. TTS. I'm just not a big fan of TTS. It's kind of obviously in the arts, specifically, but it that's the kind of thing that would the opera describer would include the voicing of the surtitles along with their description, and again, if you send me a note, J Snyder at audio described dot com. I'll put you in touch with the finest opera describer in the country, Mary Hanks, who really developed the program for the Houston Grand Opera in Texas.

Lizzy

And it's so cool. Joel, I would love to see that opera that you mentioned. It's very fascinating.

Katelyn
I would love to take Brittany Savages’ question

Lizzy

I love Britney Savage. She can be on my show any day. Welcome to the show Brittany, and Darien Center, we'll take you next.

Brittany

Hi, Liz. Oh, great to you. Hey, girl. Um, but yes, so I'm going to Colorado and I just had a couple of things, and I came in late. So there have been addressed I'm sorry. Um, but I was like, I love this because I'm blind. I take care of kiddos, and they watch audio to their whole life, and my two year old that they just do was doing so many describing words, because he just thought that was the normal in life like you see that yellow bus is going so fast down the street at two years old. It was really awesome. Um, but then No, my question is, so I know that Netflix is starting to describe shows that have ended on TV like Glee was never described when it was airing but now on Netflix is described insane with Breaking Bad, but like, for example, the Walking Dead has not finished coming close, but how can we get description while it's still airing on TV, even though like the last nine seasons haven't? Or is that even a possibility? Because I love the show, but it's super duper feasible. So I miss a lot of stuff.

Joel

Let them know that you're out there that you're paying for a streaming service or what have you. Service and you deserve to have it be accessible. That's the one thing I'm sure Roy or Everette can add to that. I do want to just say one thing quickly. Audio description for kids, you know is actually funded by the Department of Education for six years my staff wrote, I voiced we produced for the first time ever for Sesame Street, a huge success. Audio Description can help children build literacy because they hear word comparisons that your synonyms or similes they can be it helps them broaden their own verbal experience. So it's good for kids who are blind, but it's great for really anybody who wants to build literacy.

Everette

I also want to, I echo what Joel said, with the networks, but I also think it's important that most of the producers for shows like The Walking Dead, and the actors, yeah, I remember walking dead. They have Twitter feeds. Tweet them, I do that all the time, and you'll be surprised at the response, you'll get back and get them knowing about that you're a blind individual, and you want to enjoy their show, but their show doesn't have audio description. You know, it was funny. Libman is the writer and producer of the magician's, and he and I now tweet each other regularly and get them to be audio described. So that's, that's something you wanted as well, because the the producers, you know, they work for those networks, and so they will do more, as well. So that's another thing you can do.

Joel

Brittany--

Lizzy

I love that—

Joel

Real quickly with respect to kids, and everybody Listen, I know Richard greement is on this call. He founded a group called imagination video books out, go to the website, imagination, video books, they take books that are illustrated kids books, and turn them into audio described videos. It's an amazing concept. It's so needed, and I think you should, should definitely take a look, and for those of you that have kids, take advantage of imagination video books

Lizzy

Imagination video books. That’s so cool. Now did we ever get

Katelyn

I don’t think so I think he's still has no audio, but we have two other questions. If you've got time. Alright, so Lolly, and then we'll administrators iPhone, so Lolly.

Lolly

So I want to speak to quality control. I saw something last week about the artificial intelligence being used for captioning and the deaf community getting some what frustrated with the accuracy of it, and I think we can take some lessons from them. They are, I think, starting an advocacy effort around this, because a lot of times, people in teams in meeting applications, platforms this used and it's not as accurate. So when it comes to quality control, I think it's an important thing for audio description, and I think sometimes we don't give it enough. credence. I wanted to hear both Joel and comes to the whether it's TTS whether it's I the writing, I happened to watch just to check in on the Hallmark description over the weekend, and what I noticed was number one, it was TTS and number two, the writing wasn't very good. So I'll be done at this point. Thanks.

Lizzy

Thank you

Roy

There's a fascinating study about TTS within the last few years, the included audio description where the the actual voice talent read the correct pronunciation of the film, which sounded wrong out of the context of the film, and the TTS pronounced it correctly, to the listener, but incorrectly, according to how the entire film was pronouncing it. That these are the kinds of things that a quality control specialist, particularly a blind quality control specialist would never allow to get through. So thank you for asking that question, and as more companies recognize the value as the pivot again goes from, how cheap can we make it to how great we can make it that the incentive here is we are not trying to avoid a backlash, we're trying to provide the best, and directors do that set degraders do that the professional sound mixers who spent several hours working on one scene with collaboration with a director care about their work, and that's just to make sure the levels are right, how loud certain aspects are, whether it's the background voices or the actual dialogue and such. So that kind of care is being given to film, and I love how you said this Lolly that this is something that whether the deaf community is a little bit louder, or maybe it's the entertainment industry is becoming more aware that there really is an opportunity here, I'd love to hear what Joel or Everette have to say about that.

Joel

I've done a lot of talking and I can certainly emphasize this need for the human voicing the nuance that humans can bring joy has, has provided several examples of that and it's it's just so true, and I think, honestly, the National Federation of the Blind along with At the other service organizations, they need to make their voice heard. Go to Amazon, let them know go to others that are hallmark. Others, they're using TTS and say, now this is not the place for TTS. You're shortchanging us, and as we says, sighted folks wouldn't put up with it.

Roy

There's a flip side to that, too, Joel, and I love the idea of that kind of feedback, but there's also positive feedback when you hear a voice talent or the writing or something like that, to give that feedback. Unfortunately, sighted people don't have to do this. It's just a given. That is an unfair advantage, and it's yet another barrier that sighted people provide, intentionally or not, it gets in the way, but until we get to this point, those kinds of messages do make a difference that when people hear back and say, gosh, that was really great audio description. It's the reason that I tuned into it, and it's the reason why I'm watching this show, and it's why I'm subscribing to your service, that those kinds of messages are equally powerful. I'm not discounting the, the importance of constructive criticism, in other words, complain about TTS, but there is something there is something to to give in that positive feedback to those kinds of messages do get up the channel, because people never get that and those kinds of things can—

Lizzy

So it is 45, and that is the time that I've asked our panelists to be here. I know that we have one more question. If this person promises to make it so fast, like lightning fast, we can take that question, but if it's gonna be long administrator that iPhone is Yes. Can you make it really fast

Guest

Okay, I'll be really quick? How do you get, how do you get Will Schell to actually answer you if you've sent him an email or a voicemail or any?

Everette

If he doesn't answer you, please tell me because he will answer it to me. I think he will answer you, but if he doesn't, please let me know.

Joel

He's real good about it. It's Will W-I-L-L dot Schell S-C-H-E-L-L at fcc dot gov.

Lizzy

And on that note, thank you all so much for joining us. Thank you to our panelists for participating, and to our audience. Both live and joining us on the podcast later on this month. If you've enjoyed this episode, please feel free to pass it along and check out others. Thank you all for joining us. This concludes 'Scene Change'

Katelyn

I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Chris Nusbaum, Seyun Choi, and Precious Perez with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.