0:14 Intro

Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.

0:41 Lizzy – Introduction to Precious Perez, Chi Kim, and Christina Ebersohl

Hello, everybody, and welcome to scene change. My name is Lizzie Muhammad Park. I am the Vice President of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division and your host of the show. Today is our back to school episode. It's our very first back to school episode because this is our first time having the show in September. We'll be talking about applying to music schools and the accessibility accommodations once you get there. So we are so fortunate to have three music educators in different forms. First, we have the Federation of famous Precious Perez, who was finishing a double bachelor's in music education and performance at the Berklee College of Music in Massachusetts. Ironically enough, we're also joined by her Professor Chi Kim, who teaches assisted music technology in the music therapy department at the Berklee College of Music. And funny enough, he graduated from there as well. We also have Christina Ebersohl, who is a violist. She graduated from the Lamont School of Music at the University of Denver, as she is now receiving a certificate there. Welcome to the show, everyone. Now, to kick things off, I want to hear a bit about each of your personal backgrounds. Let's start off with Chi. Now, when did you start playing music? And really, where does your journey in music begin?

2:14 Chi – Where everything began

Hi, thanks for having me. So my music, like playing with the music and stuff like that my career really started obviously very young. I had my sisters. Like a lot of Asian people, my sister went to like piano, private lesson and things like that. And they'll go and come back and play some piano and I'll, I was like, three or four-ish. And I'll come to piano and like listen to them playing. And I was randomly starting playing melodies that they're playing. So in my mom's, like, oh, maybe I should send this kid to piano lessons too. So that's how I got exposed to know, music early on, through my sister just playing piano around the house and stuff like that. And then no, then I go into the more formal training. Later on, I studied as classical music. And then when I came to U.S., I know explored more pop jazz kind of genre. And yeah, from there, I went to a small liberal College in LA called Occidental College. That's where I did part of my music degree, and then transferred to Berklee College of Music. There, I finished contemporary writing and production and songwriting. I did a dual major there. And after that, I went to university, did my master in music technology. Then I worked for a couple of years, writing for you know small commercials and documentaries. Then I got recruited to Berklee back in 2010. And I'm still there now.

Lizzy  4:16 – Christian’s Journey

Wow, we're definitely going to delve more into that. Because it's I'm sure that there's some some more to pull out between three-years-old, playing on the piano, and then bam, come to the U.S. and going to- Did you say Occidental?

Chi

Yeah

Lizzy 

Yeah yeah Going to Occidental, and then Berklee, there's so much more to unpack within there. But let's jump over to Christina and I'd like to hear a bit about your music journey.

Christina

Well, very similar. You know, I started pretty young. My mom had a piano in our living room. And of course, we had that living room where it was like, that's where all the fancy stuff goes. And people don't actually sit in there. It's just to look at it. So we had a piano that she'd had as a child. And I remember playing on it, and she insisted that I get put in piano lessons, which was fine. That was fine. And I did piano for, you know, 12 years because she was insistent that I was going to be a world famous concert pianist. However, comma, I did not like the piano. So I never practiced the piano. Instead, I started taking up every instrument I could find. So I played, you know, the flute and band and then I played, they needed to tuba players. So I learned how to play tuba. And then I wanted to be in the jazz band. So I learned how to play the electric bass. And this went on and on, I learned about a dozen instruments. And then I knew I really wanted to play a stringed instrument it was it was just always in my mind that that's what I wanted. And so I went to college and got my associates degree just in the generals, and I applied to some conservatories and I got really good scholarships, but I still couldn't afford to go. So I kind of had to put my music journey on hold. And I joined the U.S. Army for a couple of years as an Arabic linguist. And then when I got out, I finally had enough money. So I was able to buy my first Viola and I started taking, you know, two lessons a week with the one violist that was within two hours of where I lived, and within a within a year and a half I applied and was accepted for my bachelor's degree. I went to Portland State University and I studied with a couple of amazing violist Joël Belgique, who's the principal Viola of the Oregon Symphony and Kenji Bunch was very well known for many different reasons, some of his untraditional ways. And then, when I graduated there, I was fortunate enough that my teacher, Basil Vendryes, at Lamont School of Music really, really wanted me to come and we had some really good conversations. And he said, If you come here, you will do great things. And so that's where I went, and I went and received my masters. And now I'm getting my performance certificate.

Lizzy 6:63 – How did Christina get into the Army while being blind

Wow. Okay, so these are two completely different stories, but apparently very similar. You know, both of you starting out with the piano, one of you loving it, the other one heating it. And going from that Now, before we move on, Christina, everyone is going to put this in the comments. I know. How did a blind person get into the army? Do you want to make any comment on that? Because I know that that's, that's just going to be on people's minds for the rest of the interview if we don't address it now.

Christina

Yeah, yeah. So I was not born blind. I was born with strabismus, which is really common. And I had eye surgery when I was three years old, and I've worn glasses my entire life. I joined the army in 2010. But in 2012, I started to lose my sight. And I was declared legally blind in 2014. And funny story, they don't really let you stay in the military and hold a weapon if you can't see anymore. So it was kind of the end of my time anyway. So yeah, I didn't actually lose my sight until later in life. 2014 was when I was declared legally blind.

Lizzy 7:55 – How did Precious get into music

Okay, so Okay, so getting back before I jump into more childhood piano playing lists, let's jump over to Precious and see if she's ever played the piano as a child. And that's her music career started.

Precious

Yes. So I knew that I wanted to be into music. When I was about six, I got this karaoke machine. And I used to record myself kind of like on tape, and that kind of thing, just singing and along to the radio and recording. And I also kind of ended up doing choir in school, and then talent shows, and that progressed to songwriting when I was in middle school. And then in high school, I knew I wanted to do music, in college. So it kind of evolved over a period of time, I had private lessons in high school with the handle on heightened society (Ask about what this says), and also was in their ensemble. And that really developed my foundation for vocal training and all of those kinds of things. So, yeah, it was, it's been a progression, and I've definitely grown over the years.

Lizzy

So your music experience was always in vocal performance. It sounds like not necessarily in the instruments, but you do play the ukulele. So when did you pick up insturments

Precious

Yes, so I play a multitude of instruments. Because music ed kind of requires you to know how to get around a lot of different things. So I started ukulele is my most comfortable accompanying instrument. And then I play a little bit of piano, guitar, the flute and then I know my way around, but wouldn't call myself proficient in like clarinet, saxophone, among other things, a lot of my instruments started in college, really just picking it up. I took piano in high school and guitar in high school, but I didn't really start picking all of that up until college

Lizzy 9:59 – What did Chi like about the piano

Wow. Okay, so all of you with these varied, you know, musical interests and, you know, talented abilities. Now, Chi, what was it that you liked about the piano from a young age? And I know you said that you study classical first and then jazz later. So I'd also like to hear your perspective on different styles of piano playing.

Chi

Sure, yeah. So I actually, it's funny story, because after, like, I, my mom decided I should become like, you know professional pianist, whatever. I hated it. Because I was taught on there, like very strict typical Asian musicians that could not tolerate any mistake. So I hated playing piano, in the beginning was fun. But once I got into more serious, I kind of didn't want to do it. And I fought a lot with my mom, like, I want to do this thing. Then I went in, I was more going into like a computer kind of thing. I like,you know messing up with the computer, take them apart and put them together and break them and stuff like that. And then I got into more music sequencing. So I was like, very interested in music technology. When I was like a middle school. Then I came to U.S. and I, one of the music teacher found out I play some piano, so she auditioned me and I was, No, I wasn't good enough to get into the band and kind of thing and then you know, I started enjoying playing piano again, because I wasn't really playing classical anymore, I was more free to explore and improvise (inaudiable). I really liked it. So I kind of rekindle my passion for piano there. And then, you know, so then I went to Berklee, and I ended up kind of marrying my both passion, technology, and music together. So I focusing on both technology and music.

Lizzy 12:24 Christina’s interests in tech

Wow. And Christina, you have interest in tech as well, right?

Christina

I do. And it kind of became us a self-serving interest. To be honest, I'm part of the reason why I always really loved the viola is because it is, as old school as you can get. It's a wooden box that I make lots of noise with. And I appreciate that I don't have to plug anything in because I am admittedly tech challenged, but because of my disability, and because of, you know, the education system, and, and just the way things work. Technology became a must. So I became extremely interested in what kind of technology would help with the music education process? And how could I best be served by technology? And therefore How can other blind students-- blind music students be served with the music technology, so it really kind of, you know, became a passion of mine.

Lizzy 13:18 – Precious when she was applying to different schools

Now, let's pause right there, because we're gonna get into that in just a couple of questions. But first, I want to ask Precious about her application process. When she was applying to different schools. You know, what was that process? Like, was a typical music school application process like?

Precious

Yeah, so the typical process, it really started from a preference list, like, do you want a bigger school or a small school? Do you want small classes size, big class size? What do you want a university versus conservatory? Because like, typically, if you're applying to a big university that has a music school within, you also have to do those requirements for liberal arts and all of the other things on top of your music requirements. So did I want something that was strictly music based, or otherwise? What were the best for music schools, so kind of narrowing all that list down? And I ended up applying to things like 8 or 9-10, somewhere around like, I applied to Ithaca College as applied to Eastman School of Music, Hart School of Music. And then I wasn't actually going to apply to Berklee, which is a funny thing, like everybody always was like, Oh, you're gonna go to Berklee? And I was like, Well, I don't really think I need to. And they were like, well, it's right there. You might as well just try. So we did. And I got rejections from a lot of the schools except for like the state schools like UMass Lowell, and all those different kinds of things. But then I ended up getting into Berklee. And I actually had a full ride to Gordon college, which also has a really good music program. But I realized like, I really wanted to go to Berklee because it was more contemporary. And it was more along the lines of what I wanted. And so I essentially just, I had to get financial aid and appeal for more money, and those things like that. And ended up getting into Berklee and being able to get through my entire college career with scholarship support and things like that. Super helpful. But it was definitely a long process and a difficult one.

Lizzy – 15:33 – Chi applying to different schools

And what about you Chi, when you were applying to different schools, I know you said that you transferred to Berklee. After Occidental, but what what was the application process like, as far as music school applications.

Chi

So after I graduated high school, I applied to a different school, then I chose Occidental. And then from there, I wanted to go to bigger school. Then I apply only to Berklee, like, you know, then I got accepted. So there was like, I didn't apply to multiple schools after Occidental. I was like, maybe I can finish Occidental, or I might want to go to different school. But if I want to go to school, I wanted Berklee, that was like, I had only one choice there. So because I wanted to do more contemporary kind of thing. And Berklee sounded like a perfect choice. And no, unlike Precious, I just had one choice in my mind.

Lizzy 16:37 – Christina’s application process

What about you, Christina? What was the application process to music school like for you.

Christina

So I am an untraditional student in every way that can be considered I you know, I didn't apply to my bachelor's program until after my stint in the army. So I was already a little bit older than everyone. And I had started my instrument later. So that set me apart. Although I never told anyone that until probably about six months ago was when I finally started admitting that to people. And so and then being blind, so it was all very, very different for me. For for me personally, because I'm a violist, and I'm very much into the classical area, as opposed to jazz. I focus mostly on professors. So who did I want to play for? Who did I want to teach me? So it didn't really matter as much if it was a conservatory or university, especially because I had already gotten my associates degree. So all of my university basic credits were out of the way. So I could just focus on the music no matter where I went. So I applied for my bachelor's degree, like two, five or six different schools, if I remember correctly, and the very first school, I went to the audition, I talked with the instructor and I explained a little bit, you know, oh, yeah, I'm blind. And you know, this is kind of how how things work. And this is how I do my thing, and let me play for you. And not 12 hours after my audition, I got an email back saying, you know, I just don't think you're teachable. I don't think I can teach you and maybe you'll make a good hobbyist one day. And so that just kind of took me down at the knees. And I sat and had my pity party, and my husband gave me a pep talk and said to prove them wrong. So I got accepted to two of the five schools for my bachelor's, and I decided to go to Portland. And the application process was was really accessible. Everything online was really accessible. Sending in the videos was super easy. And then for the master's program, it was really similar. The all of the applications are either you do it on the University website, or they do it through accepted, which is not as nice, but it still works. Okay, and you send in your videos, and yeah, it was it was all pretty smooth going application wise.

Lizzy 18:54 – Did Chi have to audition for Berklee

So Chi do you remember having to do an audition for Berklee? Or was that not a part of the process?

Chi

No, I didn’t do an audition, I had to send in like CD

Lizzy

Ah

Chi

yeah, it was not that online time yet. They didn't have that up yet. So I have to know, submit some antiquated, compact disc.

Lizzy – 19:17 what separates an accessible school from an inaccessible school

I wonder if our listeners know what that is? No, just kidding. They know what it is. So I like the juxtaposition between applying to one school applying to almost 10 and then applying to around about five you know what I mean? I like the difference of perspective that we're going to get in this conversation will be, you know, really enrich discussion because of these three different perspectives is it worked out really nicely. Um, so what separates an accessible school from an inaccessible music school

Precious

for me an inaccessible versus accessible, a lot of it has to do with what kind of resources did they have? So a lot of my process was looking at the accessibility offices for each school and seeing what they had to offer, had they had blind students before? What kinds of things did they have available? Did they know how to interact? And you know, it isn't always a thing of like, do they have these things, but also the attitude, are they willing to make sure that things are accessible, and make sure that you have what you need, even if it means them having to do something different? So I think as far as like, when I look at Berklee, a huge part of it was that Chi was there and the lab was there, the assistive technology, I was going to have those classes to teach me how to use everything my peers were using, so that I'd be on the equal people playing field. So it really is about, you know, the resources and the attitudes of the people working in disabilities. And if they have those services available, for me, at least that's, you know, the experience that I had with it.

Lizzy

And how about for you, Christina?

Christina

I 100% agree with Precious that a lot of it is about the attitude. So I, excuse me, I did not do as due diligence research as I wish I had. So each school that I went to, I was the first blind music school, first blind music student that they'd experience and they had absolutely no idea what to do with me. So I became a guinea pig for each school. But it was the attitude of the Disability Resource Center, or the disability services provider that made it accessible. So my first school, you know, I was the first one and we tried a bunch of different methods the first year that just didn't work out. And we slowly started working into a new program that, you know, just worked and it was seamless. And it's now implemented. So the next student after me will have a easy transition. And then I came to Bluemont. And I again happened to be the first one but they were super open. And it's a lot of it was about the faculty if the faculty is willing to you know, have that attitude of like what works for you. And let's sit down and have a talk about it. And let's, let's figure it out, and maybe do things in a non traditional way that makes a huge difference. And the Lamont faculty specifically I, I remember, I signed up for a course about using analytical sketch with blocks, different preludes and his pieces, which is it's a form of music theory that breaks everything down into the most simplest parts, and that it was all taught online because this was, you know, this is during COVID time, so things happen. And the teacher emailed me six weeks before, you know, class start, and he was like, hey, let's have a meeting. And I want to find out how I can better help you. And we had a meeting every week just about like, what works, what doesn't, what could he do better? And he was really excited about it. And so that excitement and that attitude, made it really accessible.

Lizzy

And it sounds like what you and Precious are both saying is to connect with the office of disabilities and see, you know, how they're reacting, see if they can put you in touch with any of the professor's you know, even before. Maybe before you apply, maybe after you've applied. You know, it kind of just see who's around. What's your opinion on that? Chi, are you the first blind student at Berklee?

Chi

No, I wasn't. We had you know other blinds students in the past. But I think it really, when it comes down to accessibility, I think editors is more important than resources. And you know, other you know, just as you need to figure out because you have attitudes, positive attitudes, they can figure out together the resources and logistics later. But if you don't have a attitudes and beginning, you're gonna run into the problem where you can't even figure out No, what do I need to like? Things like that. So I think having serving the culture of the school and you know attitudes of professors and disability office, I think were very important.

Lizzy 24:08 – Disclosing being blind in applying to colleges

I totally agree. So Precious, did you disclose your blindness in applying? And did you need any accommodations while you were doing auditions?

Precious

Yeah, so I definitely disclosed because a big part of everything for me was just making sure that you know, they had everything available. And if I needed to do a certain portion of the audition, or if there was an issue with that, I wanted to make sure they knew that because a lot of these you know, some of them we had a drive to my mom had to drive me to these different places. Some of them were like, you know, from out of town, so I had to drive somewhere near me to go audition for them. And they had different requirements. So I remember, there was one school that I auditioned for and they use a certain site reading book. And that was available in Braille. So I was able to bring that with me and use that for my audition. Some of them didn't ask me to do the sight reading portion because of the nature of their tests and not able, you know, their inability to have it ready in Braille and the fact that like, you know, they don't want you to be able to see it ahead of time. So I think it just, it really depended on the difference in the schools and what they required. But I definitely did disclose, just to make sure that I didn't have any surprises, and also that they didn't have any surprises when I went into the audition.

Lizzy

I'm just curious, were you accepted to any of the schools that didn't? Have you do the sight reading? Or did they? Or do you feel like they may have held that against you?

Precious

Oh, hmm. So I had to do sight reading for the heart School of Music, I did get an an acceptance from them. And then Gordon didn't have me do a sight reading portion. Um, I don't feel like any of the other schools that I applied to actually had me do it. But I also didn't, they counted against me because Berklee didn't have me do that either.

Lizzy

Okay

Precious

They have a thing where it's like, Okay, well, you don't have to do this. But like, let's hear how you improvise. And let's, you know, hear the songs that you chose to perform. And so those are really the aspects they were looking at. And they just don't have us do that part.

Lizzy

Okay, cool. Christina, how about you? It sounds like you disclosed? And if that's wrong, correct me? And also, what accommodations did you use during the audition process?

Christina

So I did disclose to some schools, but then after my really bad experience, I stopped disclosing and figured that, you know, hopefully, they would just take my audition as it was. So I, when I did disclose to the universities, it was because of the sight reading portion, because, you know, it's just not a thing. When you can't see it. So I talked to them, the schools that I did disclose to, and I was like, I cannot sight read due to a disability. Is there another thing you would like me to do instead? And most of them were okay with it. They're like, No, no, we'll just, you know, we'll see you at your audition. And, you know, maybe we'll have you play a little bit more or, or something like that. So I never had an issue with that. But yeah, my, my current teacher has, you know, we've discussed this, because I'm getting ready to apply for my, my, my doctoral programs, and we've discussed back and forth as to whether I should disclose ahead of time, or I shouldn't. He's concerned that, you know, I'll be judged ahead of time and more harshly as opposed to my sighted peers. And because I've experienced that a couple of times, I do see where he's coming from. However, I feel like if a school is not willing to have the right attitude about it, or if a teacher is going to judge you harshly because of an accommodation that you need, that you shouldn't be going to that school anyways, it doesn't matter if they're the best musician in the world. That's not the right fit for you. So I have decided to continue disclosing to current institutions that I'm applying to.

Lizzy

Wow. Um, and Chi, what's your opinion on that? Did you disclose? And I know that your audition was, like, maybe not in person, but did you need any accommodations? Or was it is that like, you know, is that a more time relevant thing?

Chi

Yeah. I did disclose for all my obligations. And I don't think, you know, I didn't experience any, you know, discrimination because of I disclosed, but I definitely can see how other people might feel about it. And, you know, sometimes, you know, we at Berklee as an example, we disability office and admission process, they do communicate, but no disability office does not disclose anything to a division, if someone disclose that they have a disability. But but so I think you could probably do the audition, and submit the application without disclosing on the application saying that I have a disability, but you can certainly contact disability office and disclose to them and that certainly they're not going to share that information to the admission or some other admission process.

Lizzy 29:38 – How did the assistive tech music class start at Berklee

That's also really good for students to keep in mind, so that, you know, no matter how they feel, no matter where they fall on the issue, they know that they can still do their research without disclosing to admissions if they don't want to. Now, how did the assistive tech music class, start at Berklee?

Chi

You know, we, you know, had of blind students any given year one, maybe two. But then at certain point that things around 2010 we're like five or four at one time. And they were trying to figure out, Okay, well, we got more students than ususual, so we need to get things, no, get things together. So I think what ended up happening was to try to contact all the well known music school, you know, NEC, Juilliard, and so on, and figure out what they're doing kind of doing the survey. And funny part was like, Oh, we don't have any blind students, when we have a place that will ask you that did that tactic didn't work out. So they... Well, what they did, then they invited all the so called experts from different fields, such as music, education, special education, assistant music technology experts, and had a no just honest conversation with the chairs, and deans, and professors. Okay, so we have these students, and we like to do a better job. What's the best way to do this, like this is a perspective of Professor what we are struggling with. And no, this is a student's perspective, and just throw out there like here the hurdles, or whatever. And then the panel gave us recommendation based on the their knowledge. And what everybody agreed was the technology was a key. That technology will help students do things independently, and be able to communicate with sighted peers and sighted professors. So then they started exploring, how do we deploy technology? And is, it's not that hard? No, you just schools just go out and buy technology. The problem was, even if you have those technology, and a lot of times, no one knows how to use like we okay, we have the technology checkbox see what i mean, like we have the technology. But the problem is then how students are going to learn those technologies, a lot of times those obligation, responsibility fall on the students. And sometimes some students are very techie, they can do go out and research themselves and learn those things. But no, a lot of times some students are not. And what about those students, so they decided to open up the little pilot program where we teach students how to use those technology and how it fans out. And that's how I got recruited to Berklee. We had a program called five weeks program, which is like, happens in July and August. And basically is basically, for non Berklee students to come and experience what Berklee is like. They're all taught by Berklee's faculty. And they take similar classes as college level. So know, they kind of have a mini college experience. And that's where we put the assets of music technology component into it. So students can come and learn the technology, but at the same time, experience all others things that other students experience. They go into the ensemble playing with the other side's students and so on. And no, it was pretty successful. And the students really wanted to have that experience as their regular semester. So we started incorporating the class into the regular Berklee program, not just summer program, we still have the summer program too. But we also have this program as part of the Berklee regular semester as well.

Lizzy

So the five week program is for non Berklee students, are they in high school? Are they in college? Are they in high school?

Chi

Yeah a lot of them are in high school. I love them and I even saw like 50-60 year old wanting to do music, but they never got you know got to do their thing. So they come like an experience five weeks as their little price I guess.

Lizzy

Yeah, go ahead.

Chi

And some of them you know, realize, Oh, this is what I'm missing, and they give up their career, and they come to Berklee as a regular student, and they restart.

Lizzy

Oh, wow. So it's open to anyone pretty much. Who wants to take it oh wow, that’s awesome

Chi

I remember when I was at Berklee, there was someone who was chair of economics department at another college, he quit that job and came to Berklee and became a regular student.

Lizzy 35:32 – Precious’ experience at the program

You might quit your day job, watch out, you go to this program. So P recious, did you go to that program? By chance?

Precious

I did

Lizzy

Had a feeling that you may have. Well, tell us about it. Tell us a bit about you know what you learned there? And you know, if you were, you know, in high school, or, you know, at what point this was, and, yeah, let’s hear

Precious

Absolutely, yeah. So I was encouraged to go to five week to, you know, start getting a head start, especially since I was going into Berklee, full time in the fall, to really get a head start on like learning everything and theory and what I could expect, as far as a schedule went. And so my experience getting in was a little interesting, because I had some funding issues with my state agency and different things like that. But I did make it, I think it was the middle of the first week. And I had a couple classes, including Chi’s class, I had like an ensemble, and they had like a performance lab, and then some other thing. But it was really cool, because it really gave me a sense of what I was going to be getting into not fully. But to the extent that I needed to know like, okay, I'll be fine. You know, I started learning my way around the campus, which was really helpful. I started meeting people, people that I would interact with later in during my college career, and people that I would just meet there, there were a lot of people that were just kind of, like, you know, this is my first experience. And I did get to learn a lot. Chi, I remember you saying, like, hey, if you master this stuff, now, it'll save you a lot of money if you test out of these courses. Um, so we had a really fun time just kind of learning, you know, the software, and I think I had some of the best times in the lab. So that was a highlight really, for me is being able to get introduced to the lab and everything that was offered there. And, you know, get acclimated as far as all of the technology and everything I would need went. So it was really positive experience. And I do recommend it. You know, obviously, financially, that's a difficult thing, because it's not cheap. I was fortunate enough to have the support from last Commission for the Blind and to be able to attend, because otherwise that wouldn't have been a possibility. But it is something worth attending if it's something you're highly considering doing.

Lizzy

You mentioned taking Chi’s class during the five week program, what do you learn? What is assistive music technology? What does that class look like? from a student perspective?

Precious

Oh, man, learn a lot. So, you know, the five week for me evolved into the semester. And so depending on who was in the class with me, that was okay, what are we learning? What are your goals? What do you need to work on? And then focusing on all of those things together? So, you know, back when I started, we were working on Sibelius, which is music, writing software that was accessible, it's now accessible on Mac, but back then you could only use it on Windows 7, with jaws scripts. And so learning how to use that, and then Pro Tools, and now a lot of people use logic. So now it's like, evolved into that, but really, it's focused on what are our peers using? And what do we need to know, to be able to be successful? How to write charts, how to write scores, how to record music, and different instruments, voices, what decibels, like a lot of theory and and, you know, production was built into that because by default, we had to know like, what level is safe for recording a vocal? And how much compression Do you need and how do you get to these effects in these programs and just all over the map. Throughout my time in Chi’s class, I learned how to make my website with WordPress because it's really accessible and Berklee uses Wix, which is the opposite. So it really just ranges, like, what she does is really make sure that, you know, everybody in the class is learning what they need to learn to be able to be successful. And sometimes that takes a different direction than the next class does. But it's honestly, one of the main reasons that I thrived at Berklee. If it weren't for the lab, I honestly don't know, if I would have made it. So…

Lizzy

Is this just a one semester class? Or is it like, as needed? How does it work?

Precious

As far as I remember, you can take it as long as you need to. I took it for four semesters.

Lizzy

Oh wow

Precious

Yeah

Lizzy 40:41 – Christina teaching about music and accessibility

Okay. Let's see, I will ask you about that in just a minute. But first, I want to jump over to Christina, because you also teach a class about music and accessibility, correct?

Christina

I do. Yeah, just based on my own experiences, and the fact that every school I've gone to, I've been a guinea pig, and it's taken at least a quarter to get up and running, if not a full academic year, which you know, can really make it can make you suffer if you're, you know, falling behind your peers. So, my first year of my master's program, you're required to take this class that at most places, mine was called intro to grad studies for two quarters. And it's a you do a research project and you make a research paper, it's just to teach you how to, you know, do a bibliography and write a paper and research correctly and not use Wikipedia and things like that. So we were allowed to write and research absolutely anything. And I wanted to know more about music accessibility, because they're just, you know, I still didn't know very much I, you know, I've only been using it for well, at the time I went in 2019. So that was five years. So I'd only been using it for five years. So I started doing my research. And I realized that what's out there in the world for other people to grasp and to read and to glean information from is written mostly by sighted individuals is written from a totally different perspective. A lot of the discourse did not involve interviews or perspectives from people who would use accessible technology. And a lot of the technology that's available now was not available. And there was no pedagogical plan out there for how do you institute this into a university policy or into your studio. So I wrote my paper on that. And then from there, my professor was really, really supportive. And he asked if I would create it into a lecture series to give at our Lamont  colloquium that were so hard colloquium. So I presented it to him, it was a handful of professors in the music program and a bunch of students that came. And from there, I created it into a webinar or an in person lecture. So I've now given it to 17 different universities across the world, Canada and Australia being included yay, Canada, and Australia. And basically, what they do is they they sign up, or they email me, and they're like, we need to know more about how accessibility works for music students. They attend my webinar or my lecture, and it breaks down what we use. You know, it talks about the dancing dot software, it talks about refreshable braille displays, it talks about the Library of Congress having the largest Braille score collection in the country, it talks about the use of peer assistance in the classroom or in the orchestra or any other way to use for visual descriptions, audio descriptions, it talks about recordings, and then it talks about kinesthetic techniques, using Alexander Technique and body mapping and using more of a hands-on approach and not to be afraid of that. And to change our language. Instead of saying here when you see this instead, you say, this German six chord built on a flat two or something like that being very specific in our language. And then afterwards, they get this whole list of readings that they can they can use and a whole list of resources and contacts so that they can imply apply this to their own studio or their own institution to make it accessible for any music student who wants to come in.

Lizzy

So you your classes were about teaching the teachers and make it really simple over the way over simplify it.

Christina

Yeah. Because usually people get stressed out. I just had a conversation with a prospective DMA teacher and she was like, I don't know anything about teaching a blind student. I was like, it's okay. It's fine. It's not that scary. Like we do most of it ourselves. There are just a few things that you in school need to know and we can educate you on that it's not a scary process. We're not we don't bite it's not you know, something that's gonna be terrifying and hard. Yeah, there is some cost prohibitive things involved but usually there are grants or other other funds that help institutions and studios cover that so yeah, it's it's it's more about teaching institutions and teaching the teachers all though students are welcome if they want to know more about accessibility

Lizzy

And what's the name other courses, how can people get involved with it?

Christina

The course is called accessibility is not a four letter word. And you can find out about it. If you just go to my website, it's Christina ebersol dot com, go into the FAQ's, and it talks a lot about it. And then all you got to do is submit a contact form and tell me if you want to be involved with it. Or if you if you want to view it or participate in it or anything like that. And I'm really good about responding.

Lizzy 45:30 – More about Chi’s class

So Chi in your class? What would you like to add to that question said earlier, as far as what students learn, and how long they can take the course, does, it seems like Christina's class is about, you know, educating various institutions, but your class is going to be helpful for music students who need to know more about software, you know, how to use, you know, production, software, logic, Pro Tools, things like that. So what else can you tell us about about your course, separately?

Chi

Yeah, I think our model is more like support class. As Precious explain. It's not replacing some other classes, it's more of a support where students come, and, hey, I learned this thing in x class, but I have no idea how to achieve the things that I learned in class, then we figure out, we explore together, you might not be the exactly the same way we get to the goal. But we get to the goal, you know, I mean, that's the important part, right? So the students can take multiple times as much they like, and we just try to unpack what they learned in other classes and a more accessible way. And that no, in the beginning, I teach everybody the same thing. (Inaudible), pro tools logic. But when he goes to if student takes multiple times, we mostly explore things that students need.

Lizzy

That makes sense. It almost sounds like our listeners would be the most prepared if they took the Berklee five week course if they you know, if they didn't end up going to Berklee if they wanted to go to different school to the Berklee five week course, and then send their institution to Christina's accessibility is not a four letter word course, then it seems like they would be, you know, a really just far better set up for success at whatever school they choose to go to. So there's an idea. And I also wanted to ask you, Chi, uh, you developed a software right? To work with Pro Tools or to make it more accessible. This is what I this is a rumor I've heard.

Chi

Yeah, it's not a rumor, it's been out for a while. Yeah, me and two other people. Together, we've developed a program called flotools F-L-O-T-O-O-L-S, you can read more about it at flo tools dot org. And basically what it does, it does not make pro tool more accessible or anything. But no, it makes it more efficient. For screen reader users to navigate around Pro Tools. You can use pro tools without flo tool, definitely. But if you use flo tool, it will save you a lot of times. Because know, for example, if you're enough on it, you can find out a lot of different information, just pressing different shortcuts, and it will tell you exactly what you're looking for. Whereas if you use pro tool, without flotool, you might navigate around the screen looking for different information. Whereas the flo tool lets you find that information with just one shortcut or something similar to that. So, you know, a lot of people have been using it, and I got great positive feedback. And, you know, I think things like that definitely is necessary. But I think the the trend now, I think is making every software accessible without any third party solution. I think that's the ideal and that's where we are pushing for everybody and the civilian is a great example of Brooklyn, avid got together, and avid developed this excessively feature into the civilian where you don't need any other third party thing, so, if you use Windows or Mac, as long as you have a screen reader, you can just open it and just start using it. You don't need to install any other other piece of software. So I think that's I think that's better trend that all the software needs to make their software accessible out of the box.

Lizzy 50:11 –  Barriers to music school

I totally agree with that. Um, Precious. I'd like to know, if you found any common barriers to music school? I know, that's a really loaded question.

Precious

I was gonna say, Wow. I don't know where to. Really, I wasn't ready. So I think that there are a few barriers. And I can speak a lot from the perspective of an education major in a program that's never had a blind education major. There are barriers around, obviously, people's perceptions, them, you know, the first time I walked in there, they were like, Oh, you know, this is a lot of work, like, do you have somebody that can help you do XYZ. And, you know, that evolved into me having to prove myself as somebody who was capable of being an educator, and somebody who can do the work and do it? Well,

um, and it's, I think a lot of what happens is, if you are not an advocate for yourself, and you've never had to be music school is very daunting, because a lot of the time, people don't know what you need, or don't think they can help you. I've had professors at Berklee, tell me, they can't teach me I've had to switch classes, because there was a professor that was like, sorry, can't help you. So things like that. You know, it's exhausting having to be an advocate every day, we're human too. And, you know, it's important to do our best to try and educate people and, you know, do the best we can, but it's exhausting. And so I think the most important thing to take away from those barriers, and from these kinds of things is saying, like, teaching blind students how to be advocates for themselves. Because we have to do a lot of that in the world in general, but especially going into music and into different fields into different programs, different institutions, you have no idea going into it, if they've had prior experience, some of them might, and some of them might be well prepared for it. But there's also the opposite of that. And even within certain institutions that may be some parts understand, and some parts don't, there's definitely issues around that, you know, at Berklee and anywhere else. So I think, really, it's a matter of lack of understanding, lack of awareness on the part of institutions. And also just, you know, they don't realize that there are other software's out there that can help people, they don't realize that it's actually not that hard. As Christina said, like, it's really not hard, we're not scary. It's not this, like big huge change that people have to make. So I think, all that to say, really, it's just a matter of giving institutions, those resources, and being advocates, you know, going into things, you have to be prepared for that, because it's a real thing. And it's something that can be very hard to take some days, and you know, it can knock you down, it has knocked me down quite a few times, I've made the joke that I'm going to drop out for years. Whenever I'm like, really upset. I'm like, guys, I'm just I'm done. I'm just gonna leave. I'm over it. It's happening. I don't mean it. But like, we all have to feel that you know, so. I think just being prepared, those are really, you know, that's how you overcome these barriers, because they're everywhere.

Lizzy

They really are. How about for you, Christina? What do you think are the most common barriers to music school?

Christina

I mean, I can't stress enough how much I relate to Precious and that advocacy is going to be the number one thing that when you're in music school, you absolutely have to do you don't have a choice. You have the DRC and your counselors to help you but in the end, it's your fight and it sometimes really is an uphill fight. In my perspective, I think I 100% agree with her as well that the biggest barrier in music school, especially in the classical world, so the classical world is often taught by very traditional thinkers who do things in a very traditional way, who've done things the same way for you know, it's a hundreds of years Western music education has remained the same generally for you know, quite a while. I remember two weeks before my, my junior recital, at in Portland, I was playing this duo piece with a very amazing violinist named Viet. And we asked if the head of the strings department would, you know, listen in on us and give us feedback. And he did. He listened in, he was like, wow, Christina, you know that, that sounds really good. And so I made the joke, I was like, you know, you sound impressed. And he was like, well, truthfully, I was gonna kick you out of the program, because, you know, I just didn't think that it was going to work. And I was like, oh, two weeks before my recital, that is helpful to tell me very helpful, thank you. And actually, he ended up not he barred me from the chamber music program, because he didn't think that a blind student could be in the chamber music program. And it was one of those things that at the time, you know, you, you experience these things, and you will experience them. I mean, sometimes it's unintentional. And teachers don't mean to make things like that. And sometimes it's very intentional, because they just think a certain way, and they cannot see around that. And it's your job as a student, the way to get around that barrier is one of two ways. Either you advocate as much as you can for yourself, and you push for that, or you work around it. So in that case, I worked around it, I found chamber groups outside of the program, I, I made friends, and we played instead. And then when I came to Lamont, they were like, Oh, my gosh, be in as many chamber groups as you want. This is great, please, when you always need violas, so I'm in multiple chamber groups, I'm in two or three at a time. So yeah, the biggest barrier, sometimes it's just really getting around perspectives that are old school thinking and closed off and just don't fully understand. And, like I said, there are multiple different ways to approach it, and everybody's their own, and every situation is different to other than that, you know, everything else was pretty, pretty easy to break down, you know, a lot of a lot of teachers really do want to help and a lot of teachers really, really do want to be a support system for you, and they want to see you succeed, you know, they're they're not into teaching just to watch someone fail, they really want to see people succeed. So advocacy, and sometimes just having a really thick skin and push them through it is the best way to get around those barriers.

Lizzy

I definitely agree with that, you it's almost required that we have a thick skin, because otherwise, you know, it would get us down and then we just stay down, you know, it's has a lot to do with resilience, you know what I mean? In these situations, so Chi, I'm gonna change the question slightly for you, because you were a student, but you're currently working at a school. So as you hear about these common barriers, and I'm sure that you hear about them all the time in your assistive music tech class? What are some of the workarounds that you recommend to students? And also, you know, are you able to talk to other professors to kind of help them to like change their attitudes? Or I don't know, if you've ever been put in that kind of a situation where you were able to have a conversation like that, and how did it go? If you were?

Chi

Yeah, I mean, I want to just know, go back to my first comment, like, way back is like, the attitude barrier from attitude is much harder than the attitude barrier from something else. And I think, a lot of times, when those kind of things happen, no, you have to negotiate with the different faculty and how we can help students, but, you know, if this professor doesn't want to help, that's puts a creates a difficult situation. And, and that's, I don't really deal with a lot of editors problem. And if that actually happens, then I let the disability office deal with attitude barriers, but you know, I show them you know, hey, there are ways you can accommodate you need to do X, Y, and Z, and showed them like it's not as hard as they think it is. And I think a lot of those things come from lack of understanding what people with a disability can do. And those perceptions come from what they have seen on TVs and read books and those kind of know how we are portrayed as people with a disability are very negative. I mean, even though there are some pushes out there, trying to change that but they've been getting those, those negative messages everywhere from media. And I think it's it's as a sighted person that's all they saw you never interact with the person with a disability before, then your belief system is? No, totally. Oh, I guess flawed, because you never had an experience with someone who's blind or something. But no, that's our now again, that's our job to advocate for ourselves and try to change those attitude barriers. But I think it will be really important. If anyone listening to this in the media or some other capacity that could influence perception of people with a disability. I think that's a huge job for those people. I think.

Lizzy 1:00:44 - How accessible is music school right now vs in the future

I 100% agree with that. And my final question for you all, and I love ending with this question is on a scale of 1 to 10, how accessible is music school right now? And then how accessible does it have the potential to become in you know, the foreseeable future, say, like, the next 5 to 10 years? Precious we're gonna start with you, so how accessible is it now? And then, for the, you know, in the near future how accessible can it become with, you know, some minor changes? Or even, you know, large changes?

Precious

Yeah, so, this one's a tough one. Because, you know, when I think of accessibility, not only do I think about blind students, but I think about students with other disabilities, and students dealing with other things that, um, you know, there are barriers for that I've heard about that, you know, I've interacted with. So I'd say, you know, solid six, six and a half to seven, right now, because there are aspects that are accessible. And there are workarounds. And, you know, if you're an advocate, and if you know what you need, then you can get through it. But I think across the board, it has the potential to be a nine or higher, because if everybody took notes on Christina's course, and what she, she has to offer, like, everybody would be so much better off, because institutions would be more prepared, students would be more prepared, and, you know, have less stress because it's enough to be stressed out by college in general, and then to also have to have the weight of advocacy and accessibility to deal with on top of that is a lot for anyone. So, you know, I really think that if if people really listened and really took the time to make these changes that are really not difficult to implement, then I think it could be higher than that, for sure.

Lizzy

And how about you, Christina?

Christina

Uh, I would say that music school currently, as a whole, not focusing on like, one specific school is somewhere between I would say, like a three or four for me, accessibility, for some reason, is still considered a niche, as opposed to a right, which I still have a hard time understanding why that is. And there's still a lot of times when be it a blind student or a deaf student, or someone with another documented disability, needs to let's say, do a course substitution or something. And they, they, they reach a barrier, where it's like, well, but this is what everyone takes? Well, I don't think sight singing is really the right, you know, or sight reading is really the right class for me, seeing as I can't see it, and I'm just going to be memorizing the tunes. So there's still a lot of work that needs to be done, it needs to be understood that, you know, accessibility is a right, it's not a privilege, it's not a niche, it's not something that, you know, oh, these, you know, three blind musicians are just gonna, you know, that there is that's it, you know, there's 1000s of us around the world who are singers and musicians of all sorts and educators. And it's not a niche, we our own community, and it's, it's something that needs to be more prevalent. So, right now, it's a three or four. But I easily think, you know, as Precious said, if people just open up to the resources, they open their minds a little bit, and they just accept that, you know, there are some changes that need to be made. And that's okay, we could easily be a 9 or a 10, everybody could easily have, you know, a Braille music dictionary in their music library and could have the flo tools and dancing dots on a computer that's accessible to a music student and could have a subscription to the Library of Congress to someone uses Braille scores and could have refreshable braille displays that can be checked out, all of this stuff is accessible and they'll changing language, you know, saying specifics as opposed to using nonspecific, like here, or this or that. It's, it's just a learning curve. And if everybody embraces it, we could easily get there.

Lizzy

Mmhmm, and how about you Chi how accessible is it now and how accessible it can have become.

Chi

So I mean, this will be just educated guess I don't, of course, every school in those in the country, how the state of the there's accessibility, but you know from stories that I hear from other students, and other faculty from other university ask me for help kind of things. And I'll think I'll go Christina three or four, I think there are a lot of lack of awareness and lack of education around how to educate people with a disability. And I think we have a lot more to go. And I think we can definitely go there. But it will require a lot of more work to do.

Lizzy

I kind of feel bad that we ended on that question, because the numbers are really low. But it's okay. It's, it's the truth. And this is something that students need to know going into music school. But I do feel like we were able to educate our listeners on the tools that are out there so that they are armed with resources that they can use and that they can recommend to their schools so that you know, things can become more accessible. And you know, as they're going through their daily lives, you all were able to give us some insight into things that they might face and and things that they can do to work around that. So thank you all for being here today. And to each of our listeners who joined us. Thank you. I hope that you've enjoyed another episode of scene change.

Katelyn

I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Joe Scheunemann, Precious Perez, Chris Nusbaum, Seyun Choi, and Erin Jordan with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.