0:14 – Intro
Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.

Lizzy 0:43 – Introducing the guests
Hey, I'm Lizzy Mohammed Park, the Vice President of the National Federation of a blind Performing Arts Division and your hosts. Today's show is all things strings. As you know, I love to run so we'll see how long I can keep this going. Welcome to today's episode of Scene Change. We're so fortunate to have one of our board members here today. She's a cellist. She's a federationist from Illinois, and she brings a lot to the performing arts division. Leslie Hemric. How are you Leslie?

Leslie
I'm doing great. How are you?

Lizzy
I'm great. We also have from the great state of Michigan, one of our newest members to the performing arts division. She's a violinist. She's a high school student. She’s been playing violin since what age five or so, and I think that's all I know about her for now. So we're gonna get to know her a lot better in this episode. Julia LaGrand. How are you Julia?

Julia
Hi. I'm so happy to be here. Yes, I did start playing violin at five. So you got it right.

Lizzy
I can do math. That's good, basic math. What's your musical background? Do you know I know that you started at age five, but does you know, does any of your family play music? Sing anything like that? Do you play any other instruments?

Julia
Yes. So I began violin at age five. As you said, my sister began cello around the same time. She's four years older than me, but she is currently a cello performance major at the University of Michigan, and we're definitely the most musical of our siblings. We, our parents are pretty musical. Neither of them are professional musicians, but my mom did a lot of piano in high school and some in college and invested a lot in helping us become more musical with her musical background.

Lizzy
That’s really cool. Do you play any piano or just violin?

Julia
I did play piano. I had a few like multiple year times when I played piano, but so I played it for about two years when I was very young, and then two years when I was in middle school, and I did a lot of jazz, also in middle school, along with the piano and then I transferred into violin jazz, and I don't really do much jazz anymore. I'm mainly classical now, but that's some of my background as well.

Lizzy
That's really cool. Leslie, remind us till I want to hear so I read because I was talking to you before the show. That's not weird. I read that you met your husband was that in the summer program that you did? And also what instrument does your son play? Because that's gonna bother me for this for the rest of the day, if I don't ask you.

Leslie
So I met my husband at the meadow mount School of Music, which is an eight week summer program, no seven week summer program in Westport, New York, and he had studied with Tanya Carey for a year and a summer he was studied with her at Michigan State, and then I met him. He was one of her graduate assistants for the camp. So he was assigned to help the new students out and make sure they got acclimated. So it started out where he was my reader, and he would explain Tanya Carey's methods, because some of them were a little interesting and hard to get used to but eventually made sense, and as they say, that was in the year 2000 And it's the year 2020, and as they say the rest is history.

Lizzy
That is lovely. I was reading your article in the Braille monitor and for anyone who has not checked that out, they should definitely go read it and in there you say that she would not let you essentially use a reader because okay, if I understand it correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, Leslie. Your readers would read the music essentially play it? And then you would listen to it on tape? Is that right? Or like, listen to a recording and practice that, way

Leslie
I had two graduate assistants when I was at Northern, both of them cellists, and that was during my undergrad and everything that I learned Yes, one of them would play what I had to learn on tape. So they play the piece on tape call up fingerings Boeing's dynamics, and the same process pretty much applied, whether it was orchestra music or solo repertoire, and when I got to meadow mount, Tanya Carey basically said, Nope, you're gonna learn how to do it yourself, and you have the music, and that was that she was pretty insistent about not letting anybody record anything for me.

Lizzy
And you became

Leslie
It felt like my world was turned upside down, but it was the best thing that she ever did before me because for me, because now I can pick up a piece of music and learn it without any assistance.

Lizzy
And you can interpret it however you want, and you were talking about the power of Braille music and saying that that's what it provides, and funnily enough, Julia, who we have on our show today is actually one of your Braille music students. Julia

Julia
That is correct

Lizzy
How's it going? learning Braille music and how long you know how new or experienced are you with it? And how is it?

Julia
I began learning Braille music when I was very young, and I was self taught out of some books, and with some assistance from my mother, which was a really great experience, but I really didn't use it very much for violin. I used it some for piano because my piano music was very simple, but really, sort of languished those skills, and then, recently, I read Leslie's article that you were talking about earlier, and I really got inspired to start working on real music again, and now that I am it's been, really, it's been pretty difficult, actually, but it's been amazing. I think it's really incredible to actually read what I'm playing and not just listen to other people play it, listen to sort of imprecise interpretations, listen to things that maybe aren't exactly what the composer wrote, but to have at my fingertips exactly what the composer wrote, is such an incredible experience, and I think really enhances my ability as a performer to convey what is supposed to be conveyed and to make my own artistic decisions. I think it's been incredible, and I look forward to how it will improve my performance as I get better at it.

Lizzy 8:00 – How did they choose their instruments
Wow, and that's how you found out about Leslie, if that makes sense. That's great. Yeah. Wow. So what made you choose the violin?

Julia
Um, it was offered to me, I think, is the simplest answer. My mother asked me if I would like to play music, and she suggested the violin. I didn't know much about it, but because I was five, you know, so, but I really wanted to play music, and so I started.

Lizzy
Hmm, and was that was it easy? Like, I mean, so it sounds like, you know, your mom kind of said, like, oh, like, this would be a cool instrument, and we're like, Yeah, sure. So, I mean, coming into it. So young, and as a blind child, was it easy to just kind of jump right into your first lesson? Did you face any sort of discrimination from a teacher? Or maybe that was shielded from you? I don't know.

Julia
I mean, I think I was young, and I'm young enough and unaware enough? I didn't. I've only I would say like, only in the last few years, have I ever really thought about my blindness and relationship to my music at all. I think I always had some sense that like, I was using some adaptive techniques, but it never really bothered me. My teachers were extremely accommodating, and it didn't really matter to them, or at least they didn't let on that it mattered to them. So I mean, they I was fortunate enough to have really great teachers when I was young, and so it never really mattered to me. I think I just did a good did music first. So yeah.

Lizzy
That's really good. How about for you Leslie? What made you choose the cello? And did you face discrimination was playing that specific instrument?

Leslie
So I started playing cello when I was eight, and ironically enough, my mom was the one that suggested the cello because my brother was already playing violin, and so my brother and I used to play duets all the time with like our orchestra music. He was first violin and I was cello. So we would put on these concerts on Saturday nights for our parents, and we call them mini concerts, and it was really a lot of fun, and I was already playing piano, and then two years after I started piano, I started cello, and then, when I was 14, I started voice. So obviously, I had to make a decision. Because there was no way I could major in all three of them. So when I was a senior in high school, I decided that I wanted to major in cello. I always loved the sound of the cello, and it just clicked with me even. It was very different from like, I clicked with piano, but with the cello, it was just totally different. It was like it felt like it was a part of me, and I still feel that way.

Lizzy
And then anyone ever tried to stop you from playing it? Or was it always smooth sailing.

Leslie
I was pretty fortunate to have really good teachers, and when I was 16, I auditioned for the Chicago Youth Symphony Orchestra, and at that time, I was starting to have tendinitis, and it was getting worse, it wasn't going away. So I auditioned for the person that was auditioning people for Chicago Symphony, and it so turned out that he was a cellist, and he heard me play, and he basically said, Okay, I could give you a million reasons why you're having this tendinitis problem, and if you don't relearn your technique, you're not going to be able to play in a year or two. So I started studying with I stopped studying with my former private teacher and started studying with him, and I think the best thing that my first private teacher could have ever done for me was, she insisted that I play with expressiveness, and play musically. So when this guy from Chicago Youth Symphony took me on as a student, he had commented that I play with my soul, and I just had to relearn how to play again, I had to relearn my technique again, and, and that was, of course, the best thing that ever happened to me as well, because I started studying with this teacher, he made everything go in a very different, more serious direction, and slowly, I decided that I wanted to major in cello performance.

Lizzy
So it was your tendinitis from playing the cello?

Leslie
Yeah, I was very tense, I was playing with a very tense technique and positioning and everything from my feet upward was tense. So I had to relearn everything, even how I had my feet on the floor, and how I sat down on the chair and how I held the cello, and it was just it was tough, but it was well worth it.

Lizzy 13:30 – describing the instruments 
Could each of you describe for me what your instrument looks like physically for anyone who's never seen it before, and they're just curious to know. Because I feel like these instruments, it's expected that everyone knows what a cello it looks like. Everyone knows what a piano looks like. Everyone knows what a violin looks like, but for those who haven't physically seen that before, they've only heard it.

Leslie
So the cello is like the, the shape of a violin, it's much bigger than a violin, you hold it between your knees, and it's also goes much lower, but it can go pretty darn high too. It's got a pretty wide range. You have you hold it between your legs, and it's backed. The force strings go vertical like from the top to the bottom and

Julia
What shoulder do you rest it on?

Leslie
The left

Julia
And you play with your left hand?

Leslie
I finger, I finger with the left hand and I bow with the right hand or I pizzicato which is plucking string is pizzicato with the right hand, it's got these things that look like the sides look like letter C's one's pointing to the right and one's pointing to the left like backwards and those are called the ribs and where I hold the cello, my, my knees are below those ribs, and it's got a top and a bottom and it's got a sound post, which is like a popsicle stick, and that's what makes the sound resonate on the instrument.

Lizzy
When you put your knees on it, are you putting your knees on this sort of like body of it, or that long, skinny part that where the strings can meet together?

Leslie
Yeah, the neck is up at the top. So that rests kind of near your shoulder, it doesn't rest--

Lizzy
Oh, I was picturing this the opposite way.

Leslie
Right, and then the end pin, the scroll is at the top, and that's like a long rolled up piece of wood, and then you keep going down, I like to think of that as the head of the cello, and then you go all the way down in the that foot, I like to think of the foot of the cello is the end pin, and the end pin is this skinny pole that pulls in and out and adjusts the height of your cello.

Lizzy
So does your cello rest on the floor on your chair, I know it's between your legs, but is there a stool for it?

Leslie
There is the end pin you can either have, it's all depends on what you want to do, you could have a very sharp end pin that you just dig into the floor. Or a lot of people. If they want to protect the floor, you can put a rubber tip over your end pin or you can use something called a rock stop, which is like looks like a hockey puck with a hole in it for your end pin not a hole but like an indent of metal for your end pin. Or you could use a device called a zeros anchor, and there's one end on it that literally looks like a zero, and you attach that to one of the legs of your chair the either the front, right or the front left, and then there's a strap and you can adjust the strap to how far how close you want the cello to be, and then at the end of the strap, there's a like a square hockey puck with a circle in and then the end pin goes in that circle.

Lizzy
Wow. Okay, so if I understand this correctly, you almost play. If you know about the violin, which we will talk about next. You almost played the cello in the opposite direction of the violin. Is that right?

Leslie
Yes

Lizzy
I never knew that

Leslie
I tried playing violin once and everything was just all backwards.

Lizzy
I see, so Julia, would you describe to our listeners what a violin looks like

Julia
Sure. So I will start with what Leslie called, like the head of the violin was just the scroll. So like a cello or violin has the scroll. So it's Yeah, it kind of looks like a piece of round up like wood. Some can be decorative, that's like very rare. So it's a scroll, and then that has like four, sort of very small sticks pointing out of that, I guess that are two on each side, which you know are the pegs that adjust the tuning of the strings like you know, like a guitar has, and then from there, there's like a long, pretty skinny piece of wood that's called the neck and the strings start in the scroll by the pegs, and then they come up the neck, and then on top of the neck is like a like the top of the neck, you basically call the fingerboard, and that's what the strings like, go over, and then once the neck meets the body of the violin, the fingerboard keeps going, and then the strings keep going even past when the fingerboard eventually stops, and then the strings keep going, and they go over a piece of wood called the bridge which kind of protrudes from the violin like from the face of the violin, and then they continue they keep going to basically the back of the violin for lack of a better word as the scroll as the front and the like where the strings finally and at your shoulders. The back. You could call the back of violin I guess is a mounted place for the shoulder. Call the shoulder rest and or sorry rather a chin rest sorry. So that's where you put your chin it's like a cup shaped sort of and then you have a shoulder rest underneath that which is not part of the violin. You take it on and off. It helps So you get your violin farther from your shoulder basically. So the shoulder rest, basically has direct contact with your body and the violin is a bit above that, and some, not all people use shoulder rests, and then the body of violins sort of looks like two almost like two like the C's and then at either end of the C's, you curve, sort of so closer to the neck and the shoulders, there's like, a bigger circle, and then at either end of the circle, you get to the C's, and then you go down the sides of the C's, to a set of smaller circles, and then that's what like the neck and the fingerboard go on top of that. It's probably a terrible description. I don't know what to describe the violin very.

Lizzy
It's not the you know, I asked, I asked for the, for the reasons that I talked about, and also, when I first started playing violin, because I learned everything that you just described, I couldn't stop drawing them. Like it was like, at first I didn't know what they look like, and then I started playing, so I had to know each part of it, you know, for playing purposes, and I just couldn't stop drawing them. Because I was like, I know what this looks like. Finally, I just was like, draw them everywhere. Like I've notebooks full of just violin drawings.

Julia
Drawing when I was younger, and just sort of finished again, like the cello, you do finger with the last hand, and then you hold a bow in the right hand, which is like long, and it has a good tip, where basically a long stick of wood meets with hair, and then they both come down, I guess, and eventually they meet again at the frog, which is like a larger piece of wood, and then that has a screw that like tightens and loosens the hair, and then you hold that with your right hand.

Lizzy 21:52 – Memories
Thank you, I totally almost forgot about the bow, and one thing that I just wanted to add, it's funny. So you talked about the two C shapes, and then you said there's like, a top. Above the C shapes are sort of like half circles. I kind of think of that as like a shoulders like of like a body. It's like the shoulders kind of goes in like really skinny, you know, and then it kind of comes out for like, smaller, like hips almost. It's like kind of I think of it. What's your first memory of a cello?

Leslie
Listening to Yo Yo Ma play, my aunt got me a record of Yo Yo Ma playing the first and the second box suites for unaccompanied cello by Bach, and I remember listening to him play I'm like, oh, and a play like that.

Lizzy
When, how about for you, Julia, what's your first memory of the violin

Julia
I very clearly remember like bits and pieces of my very first violin lesson. I was, I remember just being so excited, and just thrilled to be starting. I think my first memory of the sound of the violin and how beautiful and wonderful was was when I was considering a new violin, a half size violin. So moving up from a quarter size to half size, because I was growing, and there are different instrument sizes according to your size, and I remember I was getting that and you know getting any new instrument, you try some out. So I just remember having a variety of those violins and just playing through several of them and just being overwhelmed by the beauty of the sound. It was a really amazing experience.

Lizzy
It is a really beautiful sound, and it's actually the first instrument I ever played when I was in the fourth grade was violin and it's interesting that you both kind of say that you didn't really face a lot of discrimination because I didn't either, and I don't know if that's a strings thing, or a strings teacher thing or what but I'm sure our listeners will comments, their stories and their experiences. Julia, can you tell me your first memory of even playing with an orchestra? And you know how that was different from your first lesson and things like that.

Julia
So I started playing in a youth orchestra through a local music school when I was in third grade. It was a really cool experience to play with such a large body. I do actually this is bringing to mind a story about being denied the concert master position, because I remember very clearly the conductor and we did eventually get through this with this person and they changed their position eventually but I do remember very clearly. They're like oh yeah, we heard audition was the best, but like we she can't sit first. Because, yeah, no, we can't do that. So that I remember, that's probably my first major encounter with some sort of discrimination, and I totally forgot about that when you asked about that are there

Lizzy
but what was their reasoning? Wait, so you couldn't I don't know what the duties of a concert master are? Like, what were their? What was their reasoning? Like? She gets it first? Because?

Julia
Yeah, I'm not entirely. Sure. Um, so I think some of the, I mean, the reasoning, primarily is probably based around, as you said, like, what the rules are, and basically, it's to present a person who is like very competently applying all of the, you know, all of the correct bowings and correct notes and correct rhythms, and in some sense, like doing some sort of leading with, like, physically a bit of, you know, leaving to some extent, I mean, nothing crazy or anything. So I think probably her concern was that I couldn't fulfill that role.

Lizzy
So even though this person changed their mind, were you able to sit first? Or did you have to take second or like a different position?

Julia
Um, I think that year, I did not play first the next year, but after I'd push myself, I don't know, maybe she changed her mind. I don't know, but the next year, I was able to so

Lizzy
That's good. That's amazing. It's great. That you were able to not that you're able to do it, I think I think it is rare that you're able to do it. Because I mean, I can't but that's totally different. It's amazing that you know, you're able to fight and get what you needed, and, you know, ensure that you you took your rightful place as first. How about you, Leslie, what is your like, either your first memory, your earliest memory, or just a fond memory, of playing in an orchestra?

Leslie
I first memory of orchestra was the first rehearsal and everybody playing together, and I had, of course, learned some of the music ahead of time, with my teacher recording a phrase, and then I play it back, and I'd have the recorder on during the whole lesson. So she'd play a phrase, I play it back, and then play another phrase and play it back, and I just remember thinking, this is so cool when you put everybody together, and it just sounds so beautiful, and so full, and so warm, and my mom always said that. I never wanted to leave rehearsal, she had to literally fight with me sometimes to go home from rehearsal, because I didn't want to leave. That's great.

Lizzy 27:47 – Tips for keeping track of the music
Um, well, you're a teacher, I feel like, somewhere out there, though, maybe the three of us didn't face any particular discrimination. Somewhere out there. Someone listening thinks that blind people can't keep up with an orchestra or something along those lines. What tips do you all have for keeping track of the music? What sound cues Do you listen to? What kind of alternative techniques are you using when you're, you know, on that stage? And not as a blind person? It could be as a blind person, or it just could be as a performer. I don't know, which is harder to do a, you know, an orchestra performance or a solo? Could you give us some techniques for getting through that one, or just whichever?

Julia
Well, I have a lot more experience probably, as a solo performer or small chamber groups, like I have done a fair amount of orchestra, but probably not as much as solo and stuff. So I can probably speak better, to that sort of thing. I think that one thing that I have found particularly challenging as a blind musician, is figuring out a lot of stuff about stage presence, and especially as a soloist how to really, you know, move my body in a way that is both conducive to mute the music and not distracting and really conveys what I want it to. Because I don't have, you know, obviously, the experience of watching other performers, how do they move their bodies and all that kind of thing. So that's something that I've worked on a lot with my teacher, and I wouldn't say I have any like fantastic tips, but I think it's really easy to get bogged down and feel like this is impossible. I know. I've definitely felt a lot of that in working on stage presence, but I think it's important to keep it sort of, to whatever extent I think it's important to you use the resources around you to keep improving that skill, even if it feels really daunting, because if I have at least experienced it, that it's quite a lot to work through, but I think it's really important, and I think it's possible, and I think you can do really wonderful things with it, but you have to keep trying, I guess, and I think the other thing, as a chamber musician, I've worked a lot on communication with other chamber with other, you know, participants in the chamber group, and I think, my clue there, I guess it's just so focused on breathing, and I feel like that's a thing that sighted and blind musicians need to focus on a lot, but I think, particularly one musicians can benefit maybe even a little more from really, really listening to the breathing of your colleagues and getting often cues that people say, oh, like, look at this person for this, well, you can do a lot of that by listening to their breath, and just sort of like feeling, and it's not necessarily something you feel with your fingers, but there's just a lot you can pick up from feeling the atmosphere and listening to other people that you really don't need sight to fix for you, and I think that's really important to remember that there are ways to communicate with colleagues, and get that necessary information.

Lizzy
Thank you so much. How about for you, Leslie? What kind of tips, tricks, techniques have you gained from your years of playing.

Leslie
I would say, lots and lots of listening, and I can't emphasize it enough listening. Again. Another thing is counting. However, if you're having to count like 60 measures, you're gonna get very bored doing that. So what I try to listen for when I'm learning, and when I learned a new piece, the orchestra director says, Okay, we're gonna play this symphony. Let's pretend it's Beethoven fifth. So the first thing I do is I go get a recording, I can go on YouTube and on iTunes, wherever and get the recording, and I just, I listened to it, and just listen over and over and over again. So by the time I get my Braille music from the transcriber that I pretty much know it backwards and forwards upside down, and if I have to sit out a whole bunch of measures, and wait, I'm not going to be counting that 60 measures, I'm going to be listening for a sound cue. Is it the winds? Is it the first violins that the percussion and I think another thing that helps me is in rehearsal, a lot of times, I'll get some verbal cues from my stand partner. Like if we all have to come in at the same time. She gives me a cue, say, okay, he's getting ready. Okay, three, four you, though, just real quiet. So nobody else but me can hear it, but I know we're ready. I know, I can start preparing to play. I think as blind musicians, a benefit to us as blind musicians is we're going to come into rehearsal more prepared, because we have to memorize this stuff, with a fine tooth comb, whether it's through recordings, and someone playing it, or whether it's through Braille music, it's still memorization, and the only thing that's different between the two is how you take in the notes. Do you listen, do you read? Do you do both, and that's why it's so good to know the piece because, let's say I go on the YouTube and the YouTube video, I'm listening to Beethoven's Fifth, I can put that whole picture together, and that's the equivalent to the one sided, maybe glancing at the score.

Lizzy
When you say put the picture together, you're saying, read Braille music and be able to hear what that sounds like. That's you're putting those two pieces. That's the picture

Leslie
Like more like listening to how the piece goes fit, how it goes together, and how the parts all fit into each other. So then I can follow along with my part, and see how it fits in how it makes sense.

Lizzy
I see, I see

Leslie
Especially during those really boring cello parts where you might have half notes of whole bunch of half notes of open G open G open G open, and you're like, Okay, how many of these are there but there might be some lovely melody going on.

Lizzy
Yeah, yeah, it’s so true.

Julia
Yeah, definitely attest to that a lot of my more complicated things that I've done, I mean, still just in youth orchestras, but I've relied really heavily on working with a recording of the full orchestra part. Just in terms of solidifying memorization, it's been so useful, and one thing I've done too, and I'm not sure if this would be necessarily approved, but I've done a lot of work with just taking recordings and slowing them down and playing with them. As I'm working on the memorization process, just to really solidify it in that way, too. I think that's been a really useful trick that I've used.

Lizzy
That is really good

Leslie
I have to agree on this one, I will often turn up my Alexa to volume number 10 and play with the piece that I'm learning.

Lizzy
Well, seems like you guys are using similar techniques, with a lot of different things. How one of our members asked, How do you keep your bow straight, and I think this is especially hard at the beginning, I think when I stopped playing violin, I only just got the hang of it should probably should have kept going

Julia
Well, at least from my experience, it's not just at the beginning. It's a constant, interesting experience. It's a constant journey. I think it's a combination of listening to the perfection of the sound, like there's a certain sound when your bow is even just slightly crooked, and I think the more you can really like get your ears sort of tuned in to what that perfect sound is, I think that's hugely important to figuring out if your bow is straight, and I think there is at least on the violin, and I would assume it's the same on the cello, there is a sort of a feeling in the fingers. As you hold the bow, you can sort of feel the straightness of the bow, and you aren't actually feeling whether it's straight or not straight, but there's some sort of feeling that when you are on the perfect path, there is a balancing of the fingers that occurs that only occurs when it's perfectly straight. So I think those two clues are really important. When I have worked on it, I have used sighted help, especially a few years ago, when I really started diving deeper into this. Excited about like two years ago, I really started diving deeper into this, and just to figure out like that perfect sound happens when it's straight. Like what is that perfect sounds when it's straight. So I need to know when it's straight to be able to memorize what straight feels like and what straight sounds like. So I did use a fair amount of sighted help at the beginning of that journey, but now, I'm still working on it for sure, but I'm now I know those clues myself, and one last thing is that I do think that even like sighted, musicians have different ways of figuring out if it's straight or not. Like they can like look in a mirror or I know that people are looking in their zoom cameras, but it's still difficult for sighted people, and I think it's really easy. I know I'm definitely susceptible to feeling like oh man like this is if like sight would make this task easier, and it might make it approachable in a different way, but it's still really difficult for sighted people that have a straight bow.

Leslie
My teacher at Meadowmount had this really cool trick called T for tone, and what she showed me was that when your bow, I don't know if this is true on the violin or not. When your bow is straight. On the cello. It looks like a letter t between the string and the bow and the sound just opens up. It's kind of like a flower that just blooms open the sound just all of a sudden, it gets louder and fuller. You don't have to work as hard at it. It just comes from the weight of my our arm, and I can tell like Julia you were talking about balance. So on the cello tes, that is true. You're gonna balance differently, whether you're the frog, or the tip or the middle of the bow, and it's all about arm weight and letting the string hold you up, and so I've used that T for tone a lot with my students, and if the bow isn't straight, you have an X between the bow and the string and it sounds a lot different. It sounds quieter. It sounds it can sound scratchier the bow might skate on the string So then, if I'm at the point where I can say, I think I hear an X, and then I can redirect like, where's your T, find your T, because I've had to do that with my son. A lot of you by the way, my 10 year old son Michael is a cellist, and he will be playing for two years as of this December.

Lizzy
Wow

Leslie
So I've had to do that a lot with him, and I can, I can hear it, it's taken me it took me years, but I can hear it when the bow straightens out, and I can hear it and feel it on my shoulder when my bow straightens out.

Lizzy
Leslie, could you play for us? A, T, and X and a skating sound on your cello just to show our listeners the difference in sound.

Leslie
Yes, so now I'm going to play what it sounds like when you have T for tone in the bow is going straight across the string.

Leslie
Now I'm going to play what an X sounds like when you've lost your T or tone.

Lizzy
Leslie, this was another I don't remember if it was a same article, or a different one, and you, you said something about switching fingers, and you were also talking about sound in that article as well. Do you know what I'm referencing?

Leslie
I don't remember which one that was in either, but I remember he was talking about how I can tell if someone's out of tune. If they're if they're out of tune. It's either the elbows too low, the left elbows too low, or the hand isn't balanced. So that's another thing that I had to learn you're really listened for, because I can't, I've had to really minimize my touch of meaning how often I touch a student, especially with my son, he has ADHD, and even though I'm not his private teacher who has a private teacher that he takes lessons from once a week, I still had to learn to really tone the touch down, because he just he couldn't handle it, and it's really been an eye opener for me, so to speak. Because I didn't realize how I mean, I knew I could hear some things with sound, but I didn't realize just how much and it's only getting to be stronger. What I can hear by sound.

Lizzy
So you can tell all of these things just from listening to your students. That's really cool.

Leslie
Yeah, or I might say, is your wing up meaning is your elbow up was sounds like your, your wing may be down. We call it a wing or our wing, and our left elbow is our wing and cello, and then, you know, they correct it, and then all of a sudden, the notes in tune is pretty cool. When you have students who are really honest with you, and my 14 year old student that I have, she's the only cellist that I'm teaching online, and it works well for her, but I don't know how well it would work the teaching online, like with a six year old or someone younger? Because I would need more sighted help.

Lizzy
I think that's tough for anyone. I mean, I know I've been doing well and stuff to you, and with such young students, I don't think it matters what you're teaching them I think they you know, it's it's a different ball game, and I'm even hearing teachers, whether they're sighted blind or otherwise, just teaching, I don't know English is a different a different tasks so than usual. So I could totally see how the online thing would would really change, but it's good actually come to think of it, and I was thinking of this when you were talking, it's good that you sort of started using less tactile feedback with your students because of the whole online thing because then you're not relying on it, you know what I mean? And you're able to do it by sound and you know, those skills are much stronger for you because you've been practicing it so that's good. That's really good.

Julia
I was just gonna say I don't have experience like teaching and identifying those things and students obviously pretty young. Definitely, I can attest to the importance of, you know, that hand frame stuff and intonation and telling when things are out of tune it's, yeah, it's a really interesting experience, even just in myself, like doing the detective work of, okay, there are a variety of problems that could be happening and like the positioning and the hand frame is just so crucial to making that, and I think that's something that I try to think about when I practice is, you know, how would I explain if I heard this problem? How would I explain it to students? And how would I address it in a student? And so I think, yeah, I think a lot about, okay, well, how could a hand frame be adjusted to make this more in tune and stuff like that? So-

Lizzy
Is that like, what you wanna do you want to be a music music teacher, a violin teacher?

Julia
Um, I definitely want to be something related to a professional violin playing. I think right now and a little more geared towards performance, but I can definitely imagine teaching either being a supplement or my primary thing. I mean, I really don't know, but, I mean, I could definitely see myself doing it, and I want to do violin in some capacity. Definitely.

Lizzy
Wow, that's so cool, and I would be remiss if I didn't mention, Leslie is credentials beyond doing her prestigious summer program. She is also a graduate of is it pronounced Eastman? Leslie?

Leslie
Yeah, I have a master's degree from Eastman School of Music in Rochester, New York, and my undergrad degree in cello performance, and then my undergrad degree is also in cello performance and that degrees from Northern Illinois University, and then I have a music therapy background, which means that I went to Western Illinois University to do a music therapy equivalency, and I completed the coursework, but not the internship, because it didn't work out.

Lizzy 46:54 – Any advice
I see. We have an amazing cello performer and an amazing violin performer that we're just so lucky to have today. Well trained many accolades, many, you know, different things to come, and many things that have already come for each of you. I'd like to close off the show, with any final advice that you have for blind string players, and then with a song that you'd like to play to show our listeners the difference between the violin and the cello?

Julia
All right, well, I think the most important thing I have to say is sort of reiterating what Leslie said earlier about just the power of listening, I think is just so so crucial for fine musicians, and honestly, all musicians, listening is so important, and I think it's really wonderful to be able to embrace that as much as possible, and I know that I have had a, I've been fortunate to have really wonderful teachers who have worked to adapt things. Well for me, I know that not all teachers do this, but I've been really fortunate to have great teachers, and so I encourage, I guess I would encourage blind musicians to you know, seek out teachers who are willing to do this, who are willing to teach adaptively and just really be open to new ways of doing things that might not be how sighted peers do them, but I can be incredibly effective, and always remember the power of listening

Lizzy
And listen, would you like to play for us?

Julia
I'll just play a bit of the third movement of which is called the Siciliana from the first Sonata for unaccompanied violin by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Lizzy
Thank you. That was lovely. What a treat for our listeners and for all of us here as well. Leslie, how about you? what final advice do you have for our our listeners who might be interested in playing the strings? And what song would you like to play for us?

Leslie
I would say learn Braille music at an early age, preferably when your sighted counterparts are learning Braille music. So you don't have to play catch up, follow your dreams, and if you do run into a teacher or a colleague that is doubtful about your abilities have always tried to educate first, but remember that it takes two to tango. If you try to educate in the other person, the other person is either going to want to learn, not want to learn or they could care less, and if you get someone who wants to learn from you, great if you get someone who doesn't want to learn from you, then they're not worth your time, and just keep moving forward, and you can always you're going to find someone eventually I experienced this myself with playing in the Elmhurst symphony, I had a 13 year gap where I had auditioned for an orchestra in 2004, and it didn't go well, the audition didn't go well, and on top of that the conductor was rather closed minded about blind people in general and what we could do, and so I finally found the Elmhurst symphony, like 13 years later, I knew that I wasn't going to give up on it that my dream of playing in a professional orchestra that somewhere sometime an opportunity would come up, and it did. So to hold on to your dreams and when you go in there to play an audition. Go in there as prepared as possible, and first play your excerpts and your pieces, and then this is your time to give your sales pitch and sell yourself and go in there with confidence and then the rest is really out of your hands, but as long as you know you've done the best you can. That's all that counts.

Lizzy
So true. What song would you like to play for us before we go Leslie

Leslie
I would like to play part of the jig from the third suite in C major for unaccompanied cello by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Lizzy
Wow, that was great. Leslie, thank you so much. This has to be one of our most uplifting, though it's only our third, but so far, our most uplifting episode have 'Scene Change'. Both of you have such positive stories, and that's a great thing is, you know, very fortunate that you were both able to find teachers who were open minded and open to alternative techniques and adaptive techniques, and they were able to train each of you in those methods, and it's just, it's, it's great. It's, it's refreshing is the word I'm looking for. It's very refreshing to see here on the show. Of course, we want to present all sides of various issues. So when the negative things come about, they need to be spoken about, but it's nice to know that sometimes there aren't really many negatives. So thank you both for joining us today. Julia. It's been great getting to know you, and Leslie, it's been great getting to know even more about you. I feel like we already know you in the Federation, but whenever we can get to know a member in a different light. We were seeing you here the teacher, as a performer, as a mentor, and advisor, and it's just really great for our members to get to know each of you on a personal and professional level. I'm so grateful that we were able to have you here today.

Julia
It's been great being on here. I'm so happy I was able to do this. Thank you so much.

Leslie
Thank you so much for having me, as well.

Lizzy
Anytime, and this has been another episode of ‘Scene Change’.

Katelyn
I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Chris Nusbaum, Seyoon Choi, and Precious Perez with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.