Intro 0:14
Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.

Lizzy 0:43 – introducing the guests
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Scene change. My name is Lizzie Muhammad Park, and I'm the Vice President of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division and the host of the show. This is our March issue, and we brought four experienced marching band performers. They're joining us today from various states and they play various instruments we have Miso Kwak, who lives in Massachusetts, and has been playing the flute since the fourth grade. She was in band, marching band that is all four years of high school and has two years of being a section leader. She was a member of the American National Honor Band, and has been involved with the National Federation of the Blind and several ways. She's passionate about educating the youth and has been involved in our Youth Slam program in previous years. She's also a 2013 national scholarship winner. Welcome to the show Miso

Miso
Thank you so much for having me.

Lizzy
And next up we have Emily Kiehl, who is from Ohio. She currently plays the tuba for her college marching band and she'll tell us more about that in just a minute, but she started out playing the saxophone in middle school. She is a member of the National Association of Blind students. She's on the board for the Ohio Association of Blind students, and is a 2020 scholarship winner. Congratulations, Emily.

Emily
Thanks, and I'm excited to be here.

Lizzy
Awesome. Next up we have also from Ohio, Kinshuk Tella he's been playing and performing for the last seven years. Now he plays some pretty cool instruments, including the tuba, and a couple of others, which I've never heard of. So I'm excited to learn more about them. He's played in several ensembles, and is the president of the Ohio Association of Blind students in addition to the secretary for his local chapter. Hey Kinshuk.

Kinshuk
Hi, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Lizzy
Awesome, and last, but most certainly not least, we have Seyoon Choi from Missouri. He has played several instruments, including the keyboard, the triangle and the flute and was in marching band for four years of high school. He is the co chair for the Outreach Committee of the National Association of Blind students and is a board member for the Missouri Association of Blind students. He is also on our podcast team, and was a big part of putting together today's show. Thank you for all your work Seyoon.

Seyoon 
Thank you so much and happy to be here.

Lizzy 3:23 – The beginning with their insturments
Awesome. So we have a quite the combination of instruments, states and experiences. I'd love to hear from each of you what your earliest memory was of, it could be any instrument or the instrument that you play for band. What made you say that you wanted to play that specific instrument? Did you see someone playing it? Did you hear it and think that it's, you know, sounds so beautiful. What was it about your instrument that made you just want to go for it?

Emily
So I started playing saxophone, like back in middle school, and I played saxophone and oboe all through high school, and so that's what I marched in high school as well for marching band. Um, I think my earliest memory of saxophone would be sitting in my middle school band room probably, and I was really small and middle school, I probably wasn't four feet tall, and my band director gave me a bari saxophone, because there weren't any bari saxes, and it was just middle school band. So obviously, it didn't matter too much, but she was like, 'here have this' and it was bigger than I was, but it was fun. I played bari sax in one of the honor bands in high school, and then for sax er- for tuba, which is my main instrument now. I switched my senior year like at the end of my senior year, because when I signed up for college band, they're like 'we need more tubas.' And so they went to the saxophones because there was, there was an army of saxophones and like 'so we'll take some of you if you want to switch the tuba and just try something new.' And so I was like, might as well go for it, and I love it. So it's a super good time.

Lizzy
And how about for you, Miso? So what's your earliest memory?

Miso
Okay, so um, this memory that I have about my flute playing is actually with Korean traditional flute. I grew up there in South Korea for some time, and I played a Korean traditional flute on like, starting in the last year of like, kindergarten, I think it was one of kind of extracurricular classes that were offered in like my local community, and I actually had a super hard time making even the sound out of it, but I somehow got around to doing that, and then I thought that was pretty fun, and, but it kind of didn't really last me, like, long once that class was over, I didn't really play, and yeah, then I was playing, I was learning the violin at one point at the school for the blind that I used to go to, and I was really bad at it, and the teacher who was teaching me the violin was also the school band director, and once I, once he said that I've my hands were big enough. He said, 'Why don't you try some wind instruments? It actually might be a better fit for you.' So yeah, that's it. I have longer story than that, but it is short. That's how I started picking up the wind instrument, and because I had that earlier memory of playing the Korean traditional one, I decided to play the flute, and that's been my main instrument since then.

Lizzy
Wow, and Kinshuk how bout for you.

Kinshuk
Yeah, so my journey with music, especially begun in middle school as well. In sixth grade, I ended up taking band class in order to avoid art class, because I really didn't like art, and I picked, actually trombone initially, and the reason why I picked trombone, and because I, you know, tried it out, I can make a sound out of it sort of had no button to see on a slide, you know, so I thought, Oh, very easy you know, just slide around can't be too hard. Well I ended up being very bad at trombone, and I was very close to quitting at the end of my sixth grade year, until my band director introduced me to the baritone which is essentially an also a low brass instrument, but it has buttons instead of a slide, and also valves, and so I tried that out and I ended up liking it. I like the feel of it the way it plays, and so I stuck with band throughout middle school and eventually got really passionate about it. Really enjoyed it, and then I kind of jump started my music, you know, interests in high school and post high school.

Lizzy
Oh, and Seyoon?

Seyoon
So I think I have an earful story. Okay. My experience with music begins with when I was around the age of four, actually was from my distant. I believe it was my aunt. On my dad's side that I was they, she donated an accoustic piano. So we were able to bring the piano into our apartment at this time, I was also in South Korea, like Miso was, and I expressed a very deep interest in piano, I would come home and then spend seven or more hours sitting in front of the piano trying to make sound out of it. Obviously, you have the keys, you press on the keys and will instantly make notes. It was until I was five or six, I picked up various songs I heard on TV, and I was beginning to mimic how those sounds, and my curious mother decided to do some web searching to understand why do I have the ability to do this, and turns out I have a perfect pitch, which is a technical term, which is not a technical term for absolute pitch where I could distinguish notes based on what I hear. So anything I hear revolves around pitch which is slightly irritating, and it was just that turning point in my life when I learned a little bit more about that perfect pitch myself. That music is something I I was gifted with. So I tinkered with some other instruments in between. I've also received private piano lessons. I've learned a traditional flute as well. It was a wooden one, and when they immigrated to the states in 20-2012. My mom asked about whether I wanted to join a string orchestra or a band, and that's when they said, 'I would like to join the band' because I had no clue about either one of these really specifically, because I was so new to the school system here. So I was really focused on that, and my mom offered to see if I would be interested in a flute, because of the tone, the beautifulness of the tone and how easy it would be, or she assumed it would be easy to pick up, but I was able to make a sound out of it during the beginning band and picked up on notes pretty quickly, and later through the band, I continued to play the flute, and then went back to where my home instrument instrument was, which is, which was the piano, and then my junior year, I transferred into front ensemble, which is the pit of the band, which I'm sure we will talk about later, and throughout the episode, and I picked up the lead soloist role by senior year.

Lizzy 10:59 – How they learned to play their insturments
That is so cool, and yes, we will get to some more detailed aspects of band in just a minute here, but first, I'd like to know what adaptive techniques you use to learn your instrument, and I mean, it seems like all of you have experienced playing several instruments. So if you'd like to get into the different the differences between how you've learned to play or you know, whether it's private lessons or learning by ear, and you know, what really worked for you.

Kinshuk
Yeah, so for context, I do have some remaining vision on the legally blind spectrum. So initially, through my education and band class, especially, I was very much oriented to using traditional printed materials, which is very much enlarged, and so it had these like giant packets of sheet music D ridiculously big on like a ring, like flip through them trying to, you know, work sort of, but it wasn't very efficient. So ultimately, I ended up just, you know, just spending countless hours in my parents basement, just listening over and over again to the, to the piece we're playing whatever it was, and just trying to memorizing it by ear, in conjunction with the sheet music, which I would like memorize upon reading it over and over again, very meticulously, and so that's the main way I kind of did it, it wasn't super efficient, but it took a lot of time and energy, but a lot of passion, but ultimately, I ended up you know, being able to distinguish pitches. Now, I don't have perfect, perfect pitch. I wish I did quite jealous of you Seyoon, but I'm, I was able to, like really understand like, what like what a B flat sounds like, for example, and like, when I hear that pitch or whatever, and a piece I'm playing I can, I'm able to tell, okay, that's a B flat, and also knowing the key and type signature of the piece also helps very much. So it's taking all these little, you know, bits and pieces like a puzzle and kind of putting it together, but ultimately, it takes a lot of time and work and just repetition to get it down.

Lizzy
So did you kind of teach yourself it sounds like you're just kind of went in the basement and learned by ear?

Kinshuk
How can basically yeah, I pretty much just self taught I never took private lessons, I considered it, but I in a way, I felt like I would be my own best teacher, and it worked out generally.

Lizzy 13:21 – Differences between learning in South Korea and the States
Wow, that's really cool. Now Miso I know that you said that you've had lessons. So one question that I'm curious about. For you more specifically, is the differences between taking lessons here and taking lessons in South Korea? And you know, if there were any techniques that were different, or if it was exactly the same? And also what what sort of worked better for you as the as the student?

Miso
Yeah, for sure. Also, I also have taken so my first music lesson was actually involving piano as well. Similar to Seyoon and yeah, I I've had multiple piano teachers going on until from the time I started, and then I eventually quit piano regretfully, regrettably, but at one point, I was really lucky to have a piano teacher who was a mom of one of my classmates at the school for the blind that this friend and I used to attend and she she taught herself Braille music code and then taught her daughter and her friends including myself how to read Braille music. So I learned the basics of like reading Braille music, and then learning piano that way, I think in early years of my elementary school, so by the time I picked up the flute I that was also the time that I started quitting piano, but I had the real music skills on hand and the band director at the school for the blind, who was also like not only drafting the band, but also giving all the students some lessons, and he would sometimes Braille the parts, or sometimes he would teach us just by recording and then just like sitting down and teaching us like at real time. So it was a combination of things, and then when I came to the States, I was in the seventh grade, and really, band was really the class only class that I could like, fully participate, since my English wasn't as good at the time, but the catch here was that I no longer had access to Braille music. So I then started learning all by ear, and that kind of continued until, when I reached high school, and which at one point, the music was so hard that I couldn't just pick up my parts by listening to it. So then I actually went, worked with my TBI and other teachers to make sure that I got my parts brailled, and in terms of lessons, so the really private lessons for flute, I started taking it in middle school here in the States, and so the private lesson was both part combination of sometimes band music, but mainly it was learning like solo repertoire, and I was up one point seriously considering to major in music. So, you know, that was mainly reason like why I took the lessons because I wanted to, like, enhance my playing and work up to college audition level. So yeah, I think, I don't know, like the difference per se, but I think having had the experience of playing in an ensemble with just other blind students and with a teacher who is who has been, you know, had been teaching at the school for like, almost 30 years by that point. Versus like now being in a school where I was the only blind student in my band, and having to work with my teachers to make sure that, you know, they knew how I learned that sort of thing. I think that was the main difference.

Lizzy
Did you end up playing in college at all? Or?

Miso
Yeah, I did play in college. I'm not in marching band, but I did, and I did a major in music, but I did continue to play mainly through the chamber ensemble program, and also another long story, but I was very lucky to have been able to take some lessons with a professor at my university for a few years when I was there.

Lizzy
I see, and Seyoon and how about you? What's your experience as far as adaptive techniques for, you know, your marching band instruments, and then also if there are any differences. I know you're pretty young when you were taking lessons in Korea, but if there's any differences that you remember

Seyoon
My earliest memory that I have receiving a private lesson was when I was around 7-6, my mom knew of a friend at church, actually I went to in Korea, and she worked with other kids with disabilities, that specifically blind kids, but just like just kids with disabilities in general, and she was very passionate. She was actually a piano pianist for the church, and she was willing to volunteer her time after service to give me a lesson, then here, lessons here and there. So I picked up basic techniques as a 7-8 year old and then I moved to more of a direct piano lessons with different instructors. I can't quite say all of my lessons have been a positive experience in terms of working through adaptations, but they understood that I had a perfect pitch. So I would thrive in an environment where I learned off of the year but obviously, I had enough usable vision at this point, too. So we ended up installing a light fixture that brightened in front of the mu- the music stand that's on the piano. So I could see the music in a darker environment because my vision really depends on light source, and at the time I wasn't really using a large print because I had enough vision to see the normal size music, but when I came to the States I quickly moved. I when I picked up flute we went to a larger large print music like Kinshuk was saying it was a thick packets. Each piece would have at least five or six pages I would have to flip through was a ve- horizontal like orientation were supposed to vertical like eight and a half by 11 piece of book or sheet music. So it was a larger packet to, to carry around, and for me that serves more as a reference to see the dynamic markings, the breath marks, and then that I catch all of those, but most of my parts, I was able to pick up pretty fluently by ear, I just had to do a lot of repetition, spend some time outside of band class, just keeping up with my parts, and in high school, as the music got more sophisticated, my vision, this is the top the point where my vision rapidly kind of dropped from 23 to 2400 spectrum almost down to None, none and nothing practical and usable. So that was by the end of my freshman year. So I dropped using large print music completely, and ended up picking everything up by ear, and then my band director served a huge advocate role in making sure that he talks to the composers and the arrangers to make sure that my marching band pieces comes through in, in audio, and I get a slower version of the recording that has all the dynamic markings and the breath mark. So he was very proactive in kind of making sure that my materials are adapted in terms of just learning the music. So that that was really helpful, and when I took a lead soloist role, I spent almost three, four hours each day just saying after school, trying to learn my piece. So because I practically started the show and ended the show, and I wanted to make sure that I not making any mistakes.

Lizzy 21:38 – More adaptive techniques
Gotcha, and Emily, how about you? What's your experience as far as adaptive techniques and marching band.

Emily
So in the same way, as Seyoon and Kinshuk, I had a, I had enough vision to read large print music for most of high school, and then recently, I've lost a lot of vision. So it makes it way harder, and I use XML files. So this is like my my favorite thing to share, because nobody ever told me I just sort of fell on this one day is it you have XML files, which you can export from Finale or Sibelius, or any of those music editing programs, if you have access to like the music editing version of that piece, and you can export it as an XML file, and you can turn it into, you can just upload it into a free music editor, like Noteflight is one that I use, or, like the free version of Musescore, stuff like that, and just listen to it on repeat, so you can learn it that way. Um, yeah, I started piano lessons when I was really little, because my mom is a professional opera singer. So she went to school to be a musician and a music teacher, and she was very adamant that me and my sister start piano lessons, and, you know, have music as part of our lives, we were little, and so I just stuck with it, and then I joined band in sixth grade, after I decided I did not want to play piano anymore, which I kinda regret a little bit, but I also love band very, very much. Um, and I use like big, large print packets, just the same thing. As everybody else has been describing really just pages and pages of blowing up music you just have to keep flipping through them or scrolling on my iPad, just, you know, scrolling next page and play a little bit and scroll. Same thing in high school pretty much, but it was much harder when the music got complicated. So after a while you start memorizing stuff, you just have to play it so much that you memorize it because it's just easier that way. Um, and then recently, reading music has been super frustrating and is definitely a pain point in band is learning music because when there aren't any recordings of the piece, then there's there's no recording of anything to go off of like one of the pieces we're playing in band right now doesn't have any videos of it online. It was just a piece that the directors found in the back room that they wanted to play. So I have nothing to go off of, and I'll probably record somebody else playing in class and listen back to it just over and over again. Until I have it memorized and then I guess go from there. So just recordings helped me the best, since I can listen to something and play it pretty well. That's just my personal way of going to it.

Lizzy
It sounds like you might have to start taking some Braille music lessons or something because that is true. That's something that I hear about a lot on on the show is that learning by ear works until it doesn't, and like, you know, I know that you play a marching band in college, right?

Emily
I do. Yeah, I'm in marching band, and luckily for most of those, we've had XML files, and I play tuba. So luckily, my parts aren't that hard, but when when it does start getting difficult, and when I'm playing saxophone or oboe especially, it is really hard to, you know, learn all that and make sure you get everything right when there's all those notes.

Lizzy 25:36 – Learning about an ensemble in a band
Wow. So we're gonna move into a slightly different section. Kinshuk could you tell us now you belong to several ensembles. Could you tell us, for our listeners who may be are not band aficionados, what the significance of an ensemble is within the band.

Kinshuk
So within the whole a band community, there are several types of ensembles. You have a tradition, traditional concert band ensembles that are simply your traditional ensembles, were just a, either an orchestra or are not orchestra, but a wind ensemble. You know, everyone sits down in their chairs and you know, plays traditional type music, classical music, but then you also have the marching arts area that where you know, it's your marching bands, your drum corps, your college show bands, and newly there's a category called WGI winds is essentially like, from an organization called Winter Guard International, it's an indoor competitive winter season for color guard type groups, and there's a new division that was founded in 2014, I believe, where they are allowing wind players to kind of join and create their own ensembles within this scope, where it's kind of like the way describe it is like it is a combination of dance plus wind instruments plus Color Guard. So there's a lot more active and more visual type art, but just as much musical as a concert band would be.

Lizzy
That's excellent, and how many of those people is it two to three.

Kinshuk
So currently, I'm performing with one WGI winds ensemble, and I was also part of my college marching band this past fall, but as of right now, I'm just performing within one ensemble.

Lizzy
I see. Now you brought up a really good point that I want to jump into, and that is choreography and the visuals of performance. I'm gonna turn this one over to Emily, because I know she has a lot of experience with this kind of thing as well, Emily, you've been a marching band for a while, how have you dealt with choreography.

Emily
So I'm actually in the same WGI winds group that Kinshuk is in. So we both have to learn choreography, in the same way, and so, um, obviously, communication is really important. So I'm pretty open book, and so I just let everybody know, hey, I might look like I can see you, but I can't see you. That sort of thing, just putting it out there. So that has helped me in a lot of places where somebody will come and do the choreography near me, or just explain it better, and correct me if I'm doing something wrong. So if they can put it into terms that I understand, so that I can follow along and explain the movements well, and then correct me while I am doing it. That seems to work the best.

Lizzy
And do you do the same thing Kinshuk?

Kinshuk
Yes, generally. Yeah. I also like to add on to that. A lot of the choreography that we do use is a lot of stuff based out of ballet fundamentals. So I was fortunate enough to have a high school that had a WGI winds program. So I had I the experience of learning, like the very fundamentals of, you know, ballet and dance, and, you know, the way choreography works in the marching Arts is simply building or combining those different aspects like plié, and rond de jambes, for example, port de, and so, because I already had this kind of knowledge in my head of like, how to do these movements very well. I'm able to like kind of piece together, and I guess I learned a lot quicker now than I used to, especially, you know, competing now, independent organization with Emily, and so it really does help having that foundational knowledge, but also, yeah, you know, great communication is always really good and helpful, clear descriptions, and, you know, people are always willing to help, especially the people in our section. They're great people. So, you know, they'll always, you know, come close to us and like show us right in front of us or you know, they'll point out different things. We're not doing that or needed to be done. So yeah.

Lizzy
Now, Seyoon I know that is not your experience, right?

Seyoon
My freshman sophomore year, I didn't get to participate too much in the halftime per se, but I did march with the flute section, and during, at least in my high school, there was a specific movement you had to do with an instrument to look uniform, and then it was each to highlight each section, and then for in order for me to learn that, I first had to know my marching technique, which obviously, is a very kind of important role if you're standing like, so we went on in twos. So you would have a player to your right or to your left at all times, and the person that was marching was always great about letting me know their upcoming, like pending hazards, if there's like a dip, or a slope down going into the football field or the stadium, or whether I need to raise my instrument, or whether I'm deviating from the west rest of the line. So yes, there was a little bit of kind of a walking straight issue. However, I think it was ironed out pretty easily just knowing your place in distance relative to kind of people around you was kind of my key to being successful when we marched down to the field and off, on and off the field, and then when we had we made an arc, before we perform something like God Bless America, or Star Spangled Banner, in those instances, I someone was always ready to kind of jump in, and even my band director, my system band director, was ready to jump in and I get stood in the right kind of quadrant of the arc that we formed was the color guard kind of centered in the middle, and the band, we would surround the color guard and the dance team or cheer team or whatever, whatnot, and really, other than that, I'm in college, obviously. So my college doesn't have a marching band. So most of what I'm doing, I'm back to flute and doing concert band, and then that's just been a sit down band, and so there's really nothing much there.

Lizzy
I see, and Miso what's your experience? As far as marching band and choreography?

Miso
Yeah. So I think I have a unique experience here, and that my high school where I did, so I went to two different high schools. So the second high school, I did most of my marching band there, so three years, season's there. So that second high school was doing mostly parade bands. So I think it's pretty unique to where I went to high school, which is Southern California, and so our competition would be like marching down the street, and like we weren't judged on how precise our movements or how good our music was. It's very, like militaristic conductivity. So there was not so much choreography involved in that, since it's like a straight like military style marching, but I did have to learn like good posture and good distance, like what is the right step size, that sort of thing. So one thing that my band as a whole did have was like kind of that making sure that we learned the marching technique was one was we had what we called Step mat, I don't know if like, if that's an actual thing, but if or somebody just like, made it. So there was like, we would have like long mat and then we would like lay down like a stick of sort in the right spots. So the idea was like, you're like a ball of the foot. Like you have to touch that. When when you're doing that, then you're, you know, getting the right step size. So since that was pretty tactile, I was able to, you know, learn that, and then I would barrow one like for the season and bring it home and put it in my backyard, and I would just practice it sometimes at home too, and then yeah, and then the times that I did have to learn choreography for like our halftime show. I had, like, people like I would ask my marching band coach, we had a coach who was like, Yeah, helping us learn those things, and then so, you know, I would go after rehearsal, like to ask like, can you explain that again? Can you tell me if I'm doing this correctly or not? And can you just help me with that? And you know, he was very good at doing that, and mainly I had somebody who was helping me like, by putting their hand on my shoulder. So flute is a long instrument that extends out to the right. So somebody could stand on my left side and put their hand on my shoulder and my band was huge, my high school band had like, 300 kids in it. So we had more people than, like, the spots. So some, like, students were alternates, or like students would take turns guiding me. So that's how I got around, like managing the kind of visual imprecise parts of it.

Lizzy
So as far as the, the guide, they would kind of stand off to your left with just like a handle on the shoulders to sort of, like direct you and like, tell you which way to go.

Miso
Yeah, and this person would also, you know, say like, oh, that's and since, you know, when we're actually competing, we don't have that anything to, like, cut out to guide how we are doing, and then we have kind of also make sure that we are marching as a block. It's not just about me, right? The whole marching band is the group. So sometimes, you know, they'll say, like, oh, like we're slowing down, or like, smaller steps or bigger steps, and so verbal cues on which were really helpful.

Lizzy
So, I, you and someone else, and I don't remember who it was, but someone else on the panel mentioned, audio, and guides who use audio. Now, if they are playing an instrument, say like a wind instrument, how do they give audio in those instances? Or would they prefer--

Miso
Oh, this person wouldn't play, this person would be only guiding we had more people than the spots. So usually, it will be like younger students who will be guiding me, since you know, they're new to the band, and what not so, and they took turns so that they had opportunities to march, but it was usually like two or three people that, you know, that I had, like that. Were good at guiding, and that was like, a good fit to work with me. So yeah, and they weren't playing, guys. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Lizzy
Yeah, yeah, that's perfect.

Miso
So another thing that we did was like, put books on our head to march, and then, you know, if the book fell down, then you knew you're you didn't have the good posture. So, you know, that was an exercise designed for like everyone, not specifically blind students in mind, but obviously, like, it was something that I could also figure out, like, how, how is my head posture? So yeah, that was also helpful.

Lizzy
Yeah, that's always a great exercise, for having really good posture, and I know, they do that a lot in dance, like ballet and things like that, too. Um, who was the other person on our panel who mentioned having a guide

Emily
We weren't when we had to do parade bands and stuff. I used to just put my hand on either the person in front of me, or the person to the side of me when we didn't have to play in parade brand. So in parade band, if we were just walking into the stadium or something, just to stay in line, because walking straight is an issue sometimes.

Lizzy
Yeah, I feel that. So were you playing your so you said you weren't you. So you are not playing at this time. So it appears that in band, there's going to be times like this when you're playing and marching and other times when you're just marching? Is that right? Emily?

Emily
Yes.

Lizzy
Oh, I see. Okay, and during the times, when you're just marching, you'll just put your hand on the person in front of you or beside you. Now what happens when you are playing and marching?

Emily
You have to listen to who or who's around you, everybody, you understand what I say when I say that you can hear who's next to you, or if there's a person next to you just because, you know, you can hear shadows, that sort of deal. So, um, when you're marching like that, you really have to refer to like, your left side parallel, almost, or right side parallel, I guess, whichever one, but listen to who's next to you, and then if you can gauge the space between you and them, you can stay in line. Because usually it's um, you're in a grid pattern for parade band. For drill. It's a whole different story for drill. You just have to memorize your direction changes almost. There was a lot of memorizing direction changes and prayer that goes on when they're applied on a marching field. So there's there's two different kinds of marching.

Lizzy 39:47 – Difference between parade and drill
Could you tell us what that was the differences between parade and drill? I'm assuming that drill is on an open field and parade is not.

Emily
Yeah, parade would be like when you're out actively going somewhere. Usually, if you're you're in a formation and walking somewhere like up to the stadium, or just I'm doing a parade sort of deal, and then drill would be the pictures you make during a halftime show, or during a competition show that isn't in a specific formation that your sets change. With everybody else's, and it's not the same shape.

Lizzy
Now, I know what a formation is because I was a cheerleader back in middle school, but Seyoon Could you explain to any audience members who do not know what a formation is? Could you tell them what it is and possibly even give maybe an example?

Seyoon
Sure. So formation would in the marching band context, right, because there's different context in the contextual cues that the word formation gives to so what I think of formation in the marching band, that's usually in the halftime show, kind of pig- piggybacking off of Emily's points. So in the halftime show, as a flute player, for example, each player would have a dot book, or some sort of marking device to indicate their position in conjunction with football field marking. So 40 yard line 50 yard lines, that's really when you understand a little bit about how football fields are designed, not even knowing the how the sport even works. Just understanding that is a big piece of when you do formation. So that's that kind of ties in with the choreograph sort of kind of movement. So how does horn angles work? How did how do you position yourself? How do you have to, to present yourself in a, and then and have the form to have that display. So like, certain shows, like the recently completed show, my senior year, was themed in order, and that involved a pretty physical movement to line up with the color guard and the theme that we're going for which for us, it was, it was picture frames, and so we had to place picture frames all over the football field, and then it was kind of like a reincarnation of this of the dead soul, and that's kind of what we're, we're trying to, to display, and for that, do we have to have a horn angle with their instruments, obviously marchers, and then how do you where are you facing? Like? So for obviously, blind marchers, I think it would really help and even for sighted marchers, knowing where the scoreboard is, which way is your is your stadium? Where's the front of the field? Where is it? Where's your stance? Are you facing north, south, east or west? So I think that's really how I could best explain formation in a nutshell

Lizzy
Mmhmm And Kinshuk, Seyoon did a really good job of describing different ways to orient yourself to the field. Do you have anything to add maybe about safe formations and how loud it can be on the field and other ways of maintaining orientation?

Kinshuk
Yeah, so when it comes to soundstaging, on a football field, it's very tricky, because it's a big pass of land, and so as you know, like, sound travels slower than light. So naturally, there's delays. So when red drum plays a note at the know, at, you know, yard 50, and you're maybe standing on the goal line, is we need to lay there of course, and so what with orientating yourself, what helped me a lot is is like knowing which instruments are where, at what time. So for example, the front ensemble, also known as the pit is like the group of instruments that's usually at the front of the field, although nowadays, bands are being edgy, and like changing it a little bit like adding, like putting them other places in the field, but traditionally, they're the front of the field, these are your xylophones marimbas, like stationary equipment that are you know, they don't move, and so if you, you know, if you can hear those sounds and understand, like, Oh, I hear the xylophone. So that means that side is, you know, the front of the field, you can orientate your body based on those sounds, and even if it's delayed, you can still you know, tell, and traditionally, likewise, the drum lines usually in the back, not always, but generally behind like the horns. So, what really helped me was kind of like, orienting myself between the drumline and the foreign ensemble, and, you know, just just like that, if you didn't kind of know generally where on the show you are in regards to what instruments are around you at the time that helps you. So for example, if you know the tubas are on the left side of the field, at this particular set, you can kind of worry to yourself based on that, but of course, that takes a lot of work as to like understanding the show and the design of the show and how, you know, where's what and what's happening when because in a marching band show was always 1000 things happening at once.

Lizzy
Yeah, they're very intricate in terms of visuals, sound and I mean everything else. It sounds like from what you were just describing, it seems like though the stadium, you know, is quite large, and there's a there are a lot of things going on, it seems like you can like when you're on the field, you can still hear that you're still able to differentiate relevant and necessary sounds are the sounds that you need in order to maintain orientation. Is that right?

Kinshuk
You're genuinely Yes. Even though the delay. Now when it comes to understanding your tempo, like your, you know, the pace of the music, that's a different story, because traditionally, performers use the conductor as a reference of, of time, right? As a blind marcher, you know, that's not going to be of any use. So, that takes a different kind of skill set.

Lizzy
That's actually what I was just about to jump into. I'm gonna hop over to Miso real quick, Miso how did you know when to start when you were on the field? You know, with the sound delays and all these different situations, the people around you also playing and, you know, how do you know when to start the music?

Miso
Usually, we would have Drum Major who is the, you know, a person who's usually in the field show type experience, like standing on, like, like a ladder, and then like, usually, they would yell out things like that at bent 10 hut and things and other commands. So, you know, that was definitely one cue that I relied on, like, the drum majors whistles and whatever drum Drum Major was giving us like commanding us to do so that was one and then I think for a lot of pieces. Usually percussion, the drumline was start or like, and, yeah, so I think that was like I was I use like, as much musical cue as possible, and I think when that was not possible, I think I may have like, had to just come in like a spring slightly late, and then just go, like, go with the flow. As soon as I like, caught up to that, like, I mean, like we're talking like, I don't know, like very slight, slight delays, but yeah, so I think to sum up, like, use the drum majors commands, and then any other musical cues, like such as who's, who starts, like, what that sort of thing, and then obviously, like, knowing your music, and I think that's just the same thing as like, if you're playing indoors or outdoors, and then like when needed just when you're like, when your instrument starts that music, and then there's like, no sound whatsoever, for whatever reason, then maybe like us having like dealing with a slight delay and just keeping up with it.

Lizzy
No, that's what I was thinking I was just in my head when I was thinking of a technique that I would have probably used if I was in marching band, all of those sound like really good ones, especially, I could very much see myself being the kind of person to just kind of just take like, just a quick second and then hop in maybe with like the second the second note, instead of like jumping in right away and possibly coming in. So earlier so late. So it's interesting that you mentioned that. Emily, what did you do as far as knowing when to come in? Where was your experience the same? Or was it a little different?

Emily
Pretty similar. Um, I like you know, when to come when, you know, the music, the thing that helped me for cues and stuff is when I'm the I guess this was more for concert band when directors had drumsticks clicked, um, for entrances and stuff like that, like for for cues, not, you know, during a piece or anything like that, but as far as, like seeing the conductor's hands, obviously, there was none of that, but just knowing the music and having it memorized.

Lizzy
And how about for you Seyoon

Seyoon
So, for me, this is a very interesting one

Lizzy
I thought so

Seyoon
So, for me, this is a very interesting one because, um, when I returned back to kind of my senior show, where I was lead soloist. So, when I say I was a front ensemble member or pit member, I was Kinshuk was describing earlier I was stationary. So I did not march for the halftime shows, I was near the stance, I was near the electronics, I was near other percussion instruments, but as a keyboardist, and being a soloist, I had a role of starting the show and finishing up the show, which meant so the keyboard kind of has two components to it, there's a piano, but because it'll It isn't like it was it is electronic. I can produce other synthesized sounds and so that that involves a little bit more technical technology aspect of things. So because I was so close to the podium where the drum major is on, we actually I can actually count that off. After they gave us set commands to get the band already used so typically come in a competition setting or the halftime show, setting the microphone will announce is the band ready is a drum ranger ready. So we'll go through that two step kind of process. Once the band was ready to begin, I gave them a hand signal to let them know I'm ready to go, my electronics are ready to go, my speakers are hooked up, my amplifiers are hooked up, because I'm making seven or eight different connections to make sure my sounds are coming through the stadium, speakers and audio systems. So while I'm working on that, the rest of the pit is getting set up the band is getting set up. Not to mention this has to be done typically within a 5-6 minute window. So in a competition setting that is much much tighter. So I'm focusing on getting the wires connected to make sure my keyboard is powered on. Because we had an inclement weather situations before where some cables and outlets circuits got shorted out. So make sure making sure I have those extra cables in hand audio cables. Once that is ready to go, I'll give them a hand signal as I mentioned earlier, and then we start a 60 beats beats per minute, and I would crank on my read, I think it was like a sweeping sound effect that started the show. So put that pad on, and when I say pad, it's like it's like, it's a set of chords that that plays while the melody is happening. So I will crank that on, switch the mode, and then I would play my part, and then we are going from 60 to 144 BPM. So as the band comes in, I fade out my parts, the band comes in and plays, and at the end of the movement, I will come back in with my synthesized part, and then going back back down to 60. So with a lot of tempo changes, obviously I didn't have an audible cues to rely on, but I was very attentive with a drum major to make sure that we have communication in place, whether that be me, just kind of moving my upper body as gently as you possibly because of invisible cues. So if we're going 60 Beats Per Minute, I'm going to sway my bet body from left to right, to indicate the tempo we're coming back down to, and I'll give him a cue as we go into set movement to that's that's starting, I believe, 124-125 beats per minute, and that's a different set of kind of commands I'm executing all at once, and then when they when we went on the third movement, obviously, there was a different set of tempo for that. So when we kind of go through those shows, sets, I was just, I just had to communicate with the drum major to do adjust accordingly with the like the settings I'm managing on the keyboard itself. This is the sizer, and where we go, where we go to wrap up and finish.

Lizzy 52:40 – Auditioning process
That was a really good description. Thank you for that. So can jump back to you and like to know about the college audition process? And Emily, you'll you'll be up next. As far as marching band goes, so would would they be? Sorry, would you be required to do any choreo or physical marching in order to get into the ensemble or you know, into that band? Or is it largely just focused on your music ability and, you know, ability to play the instrument.

Kinshuk
So I'm actually not a music major, I'm a science major. So I do not go to the college audition process to get into the music school, and my college marching band actually does have an audition process, but it's very minimal and like pretty much no one gets cut, very, very low stakes type of ensemble, but I will share an audition audition experience I had with other organizations. So for example, I have auditioned for you can say like, the more professional like competitive type organizations within like drum corps, or ultimately the DCI or WGI winds, and so with those processes, for auditions, it's very much a combination of both I would say like 50%, visual 50% music, so that they would have you you know, demonstrate your marching technique, your abilities to spatial, be spatial aware and demonstrate various step sizes and consistency, but same time, like music is a big part of it as well. So if you can, you know, the common saying in the community where it's like, if you can play it while marching, well, you can play well, that doesn't matter if you can play standing still, if you can play it while on the move then it counts, and so, you know, the process was very rigorous, of course, for many of these ensembles, competitively. You have to be able to perform music and the visual part of it, which involves choreography many times. I'm sure Emily can attest to this. I know she has a audition and far and far more of these ensembles than I have, but a lot of these, you know ensembles require a dance audition where you're literally like doing a very intensive choreo based dance and you know, it's very unique

Lizzy
Yeah, Emily, could you share about that? Those audition experiences?

Emily
Yeah, sure. So I'm really passionate about drum corps, and hopefully this summer, I'll get the chance to march with a DCi corps. So I'm in that audition process right now, and honestly, I'm kind of lucky that it's online this year, because we get, we get the ability to, I don't want to say hide a little bit, but get more time to work on some things that you might have to do in person otherwise. So obviously, something that scares me coming into an audition room is sight reading, because it's just not not a viable option. I can't sight read music, um, without any preparation. So that has been something that I've had to, like, just let people know about for our college marching band process, it was sort of what Kendrick was saying we didn't have like a, a super rigorous process. For the marching band, it was just sort of come in and play something you've that you've prepared on your instrument, get to know the directors more. So. For drum corps auditions, it's very intensive, it's very much, you wake up at 8am, and then you do band and then you eat lunch, and then you do band, and so you practice music in the mornings, usually, and then you have a visual block, which is just marching, marching in playing in different drills and stuff. different tempos, just to test what you can do on the fly. So much stuff, everything just happened so fast it we call it camps. So audition camps.

Lizzy
Yep. So during these times, would you have to, you know, for example, learn choreo? And how would you go about? And just like you talked about a little bit already, you know, any sight reading that you'd have to do? How did you communicate that with? You know, the director and whoever else needed to know.

Emily
I have white cane that communicates, um, no, really, though, it's honestly, it's a good talking point to get to know the director, I've gotten to know, the head directors and a lot of cores that I would not have otherwise, if I wasn't just coming in and needed no accommodations or anything like that. Um, yeah, choreography is sort of similar, similar to what we would do in marching band or in any other group that I was in, where you just have to pay attention and listen, and ask for clarification. If you need it. Don't be afraid to ask for clarification, because likely someone will help you. The hardest part is when you get start moving fast, and there's, you're trying to listen to like 17 things at once, and, you know, you miss a step off, and then you're done for it's happened to all of us. It happens, but just get back on track. refocus yourself. Keep going, you're just listening, listening hard. Obviously. We're, you know, we're living in a sighted world. So sometimes we have to just work three or four times as hard as everybody else.

Lizzy
Now, Miso you've also I'm assuming, did you have to audition for your, for the American National Honor Band? I was on our side. It's not obviously. Did you have to audition for that? What was that process? Like?

Miso
Yeah, so it was Bands of America National Honor Band that was for the 2013 Rose Parade, which is a big parade that happens in Pasadena, California. So the full kind of a full story is that I came across a tweet that was calling for, like high school students to audition, and I was like, Oh, this sounds interesting. So let me just see what happens, and actually, the audition process was kind of hard, because they were using a software called Smart music, and I don't think it's still very accessible, but like, then it was not accessible at all, like, for me to do the stuff that they want me to do. So then I had to go talk to them and disclose that I was a blind student, and, you know, like, the software that you're asking us to use is not accessible. What should we do about that? And you know, so we did come up with just plain CD audition, and so that's how I auditioned and got in, and yeah, so at that year, in that year, my brothers did it four years later, and it was slightly different where they had to like submit like the video of them marching and things like that, but when I did it, it was just audio for everyone. So I think and then they sent us like practice materials like music, and then the kind of should do this kind of like marching exercise, but you know, like I said, but that was like all done at home since it was like a students around like from like 30 something different states, so we couldn't like gather throughout the year to do this. So with those things, I got help from like my family members to kind of watch the video and they described the video for me, and then when we showed up, it was kind of like, mini drum corps in that, like, it was very intensive, we had a week to prepare for this, like, sort of kind of, you know, very widely watched performances, and I, I'd say it was a kind of, like a kind of a mini corps because I know how like intense the actual, like, big corps are one of my brothers did on Santa Clara Vanguard, which is like one of the major major corps, and like, that's like a very intense experience. So it's like, I don't want to say like it was comparable to that it was not at all, but it was similar in that, you know, you had to learn a lot of stuff in a short time, and you're, you know, morning to night, like band band band, which I loved because I mean, I signed off for it. Right. So, um, but I did have to learn quickly, any kind of like movements that we had to learn, and so yeah, that was kind of like my nutshell experience from audition to the performance.

Lizzy
Wow, that sounds really cool, and it just sounds like it was something, you know, really intense too, but fun. So I'm curious to know, and was there a certain band uniform that you had to wear? And if so, could you describe it.

Seyoon
There was not a specific band uniform, per se. Everybody wore the same uniform except the drum majors, which was a different outfit to contrast from the rest of the band. So if I could try to describe phew I feel like, I've been in high school forever ago, but it was a red gown type material with kind of a stash that when diagonally across the chest with a mirror like reflective kind of elements, which I thought it was a really cool look. obviously haven't I'm sure many of you could contest to this like that. The excruciating temperature outside combined with a band uniform is the worst, and our uniforms also had that problem. So I just wanted to throw that out there.

Lizzy 1:02:45 – How accessible is marching band to blind performers
Yeah. So how on a scale of 1 to 10, how accessible is marching band for blind performers, and you could add on to that by just discussing maybe where it's lacking in accessibility. Or if you have ideas to make it more accessible.

Emily
On a scale of 1 to 10, I would say the marching band is a 10 for accessibility, if you're working with the right people, and if you're able to communicate what you need, and the people around, you are willing to work with you, and get you the right materials. So I've had a really great experience with marching band, because I've always had great classmates and great teachers, who will jump over the ocean to help me and get me the materials that I need. Um, you know, whether it's not whether it's printing out poster sized sheets of music, and tacking it to giant pieces of cardboard, and setting up myself in an entire corner of the room, or just, you know, different types of electronic music files reaching out to arrangers to have those those accessible files. Um, and just, you know, having peers on the field who are willing to tell me when I'm, when I've turned the wrong direction, stuff like that is all really important, and really makes marching band worth it. It might seem small in the moment for the person who's doing it, but it really makes the activity worth it

Lizzy
Wow, thank you so much for joining us today. Emily, it's been really great hearing your insight and you seem very outgoing, and I think that's been a huge part of your success.

Emily
Well, thank you so much.

Lizzy
And Seyoon and how about you.

Seyoon
I would also say marching band has been, I think, by far my favorite part of really middle school onward. So I would also give it a 10 I think the reason why I say that is because in high school marching band, for me, the band season really revolved so much of my life, and I think it's really you, your band teachers, your band director, your assistant band director, the color guard director and the people around you, your sections, your section leaders, become your kind of a family, if you will. There have been many occasions where I stayed after school, where color guard or my high school had a very impressive color guard, and then they they would practice for hours, and the obviously the typically on a Friday night's football game doesn't start till six or seven-ish. So I would usually because of transportation ended up staying after school, I would practice my parts and chitchat with people that I knew in band, and then over time, you get really close, and I think I don't know if it was just my band, but I took a trip to Disney World to do a march there at a magic kingdom for the parade, and that was just parade. They, they play Auld Lang Syne, which is like a new year's theme song, and then we marched throughout the theme park, and it's really special to have that crew of people that shares this exact same interest as you are, that are so passionate about music that are just so passionate about being in the community, and I always felt like there was home and my high school there was somewhere I belonged, and then when I took my senior leadership role as an music, Honor Society, and eventually a soloist, they're kind enough to kind of highlight my story on in the newsletter because I think it was my districts. My school districts first ever I was a first ever blind marcher that did make various kinds of roles and took a very active approach, and I really enjoyed that kind of being part of that group, and I think with right tools, like Emily was saying, you, you can make anything accessible, and I think music is one of the ways that you can make really things accessible and make it work, and it's a very rewarding experience, and that's why that's why music continues to be kind of even though I may not be a music major by by a longshot. It's it continues to remain as a hobby, and I want to continue to play the flute and I'm so happy to find the group of you guys that are also blind marchers that in one day, we could put it together a small ensemble of wood, brass woodwind, brass, kind of ensemble one day, and then continue to go forward and my college band as well just even though it's made this a little bit of a different experience, but you always feel like you're part of something, and you're making something you like music, that that is really rewarding, and that I really have the satisfaction when I play my instrument. It's like you can escape from reality, and just play your heart out.

Lizzy
Thank you so much. That would be so cool to have all blind marching band, we got a we got to make that happen, but we really enjoyed your detailed descriptions today, they have been amazing, and really going to be helpful to our listeners, especially our specifically our blind listeners who may not have seen some of these things before, you've done a really great job of making everything easy to picture, you know, as far as mental images go, so thank you.

Seyoon
Thank you

Lizzy
And Kinshuk how about you? How accessible is marching band and why?

Kinshuk
Yeah, so I will just first off say that I 100% agree with everything, Emily and Seyoon have said so far, like music is a very rewarding experience, especially in a marching band, because it's such a tight knit community, and it's been very rewarding, especially throughout high school, and so you know, with that, I'll also get marching band a 10, and you know, I will say though, like the marching arts in general, it's a very diverse, very different activity from your traditional activities, but within the activity, there's so many different variations, you have your, you know, your halftime entertainment show bands to your you know professional, you know, cutthroat type, high pressure environments, like drum corps, and so but you know, within all those different environments, like there's a commonality in that, such a tight knit community, and like Emily was saying, like, the right, the right people will make a huge difference, and, you know, I've had the same experience to fortunately where, you know, my directors did not know, didn't they didn't really care that I had accommodation, they, they loved that I was passionate about the music, and if I was willing to work for it, they're willing to help me with it, and you know, from serving as a member, freshman member to eventually, you know, being in leadership roles later in high school, like, do you know, it's very rewarding, especially when you're taking an active role like Seyoon said.

Lizzy
Thank you so much for joining us today, Kinshuk, you've definitely shown all of us the the extent to which hard work really can pay off. I've personally enjoyed hearing your thoughtful responses to each question, and it was, it's cool that you taught yourself pretty much how to play these instruments, and then you've been able to jump into, you know, doing band taking on leadership roles, and so on and so forth. So thank you so much. It's been lovely having you today.

Kinshuk
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the, on the show, I really enjoy hearing about the experiences of you know, everyone else here, and I'm, you know, it's very cool to see that other people just like me are doing the same exact kind of activity.

Lizzy
And Miso how about you, on a scale of 1 to 10, I think I know what you're gonna say, because everybody's been giving a 10, but you don't have to, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how accessible is marching band, and why.

Miso
So in terms of accessibility score, I think I would probably give, I don't know, like, solid B plus, so like, 8-8.8-9, maybe 9, and the reason why I say that is I think, inherently marching band is a visual activity. Like, I can't just show up to some like drum corps show or like real show competition, and, you know, expect myself to fully fully enjoy the show without someone describing what's going on in the field, and like, you know, like, I don't think I can do this, like independently, right, like, you know, like learning how to march and learning, you know, making sure that I'm in line all the time, like, my posture is good all the time, but I need help from somebody to make sure like as nearly totally blind person like it's marching band isn't visually inherent activity. That said, I can, you know, give a pretty high score and accessibility scale, in the 1 to 10, because like, everybody else, already said, it's really what you make out of it, and I think it's really up to you as a person and like, how determined you are to make, you know, make things work, but also like it also it's also up to like people around you. So like, band directors, and then your classmates in the band or your bandmates, I guess, in college or like, outside of school setting. If you know, people are willing to make things work and collaborate, I do think it's very, very accessible. I don't think the kind of visual nature of marching bands should, you know, stop you from not trying at all, because one of my favorite quotes from my high school band director is not trying, not trying is tragic, because, you know, you wouldn't know without trying how things will work out, but, you know, in terms of my experience, I would like everyone else I would give 10 out of 10, and honestly, 10+ out of 10. Because, you know, I think I learned a lot about work ethic, collaborating with others, you know, self advocacy, like all these skills that we talk a lot about within the blindness community, and specifically, like what NFB talks about a lot. I think those skills I gained a lot from band, and specifically, like making sure that I was able to participate in marching band and, you know, like everyone else already said, like, the sense of belonging, the camaraderie like community, like all those things are very just good things to, you know, good things to experience, and I think, you know, now like, looking back at my high school experience, like, I think I'm like, I think I'm a pretty like, okay, like decent and good person, like largely because of like all the lessons that I've learned from being in marching bands. So that's, that's my comments to your question.

Lizzy
Sure, and thank you so much for joining us today and really enriching this episode with a fresh perspective. I know I've enjoyed it, and I'm sure that our listeners will as well.

Miso
Thank you so much for having me. It was yeah, it was just great to be with you all and share my experience.

Lizzy
Well, that's our show for today, everybody. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to our panelists. As always, thank you to our producer, Shane Lowe, and I'll see you in April.

Katelyn
I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Chris Nusbaum, Seyoon Choi, and Precious Perez with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.